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  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    The Bound are metaphysically dead, despite what their biological processes would have you believe — their remembrance of a ghost grants no Essence, and one of the first things the game tells you in the "Truth and Lies" sidebar at the front of the book is "magic that specifically affects the living does not work on them[.]"
    How does using life on a werewolf in human form work? (cba checking, Can you only use spirit on all Werewolves in any form or need both life/spirit or only spirit? Form probably shouldn't matter as they are living in all forms too?) I'm sure it's been thrashed out and would apply the same to Sineaters if they also count as a hybrid thingy.

    In the same way mind can cross over various things by proxy of them having a mind, i think Life can too, Werewolves are living so life should work on them, Sineaters are too, but then sineaters also being deathly means they get shafted by death too and werewolves with spirit? Meh good. Needing to add +2 spirit or +2 death may work too. I don't think there's any hard rules (until maybe contegion books) so decide for your game.
    Last edited by totalgit; 01-11-2021, 03:54 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Andrew Kaninchen View Post
      Another Geist (and Vampire, for that matter) and Mage crossover related question, this one might not be too simple, but here it goes:
      In general:
      Geists are basically just ghosts in 2e. (In 1e I believe they were kinda ghost/spirit hybrids.)

      The Bound (aka Sin-Eaters) are metaphysically dead, but have fully functional biological bodies. The Life Arcanum governs both the concept of being alive and biology in general. As such, Life spells should work as long as they only relate to the body of the Bound rather than any higher concepts of "life".
      For example: You can cast Knit to heal a Bound because that's just using the body's natural and still functional ability to heal, but if you cast Web of Life they would not ping because they're not alive.

      Vampires are walking corpses. Life spells generally affect them the same way they'd affect regular corpses. The exception is when the vampire uses Blush of Health to restart some biological functions. Life can interact with biological functions (but not the underlying ability of being able to use Blush of Life).
      For example: They would not ping for Web of Life (regardless of whether they use Blush of Life or not) and Knit wouldn't have any effect because they don't have a natural healing process anymore, but you could cast a Life Veiling spell to make them look alive just like how you could cast such a spell on a corpse to make it look alive.

      Originally posted by totalgit View Post
      How does using life on a werewolf in human form work?
      Werewolves are both easier and more difficult to use Life on. They are alive so any higher concept Life spells relating to "life" works on them just fine (the Life Knowing spell above would definitely ping for werewolves), but because they are shapeshifters and regenerators it means you can have trouble affecting their bodies since spells aren't allowed to mess around with other templates' powers.
      Whether or not you need to add Spirit to biology-based Life spells depends on how you interpret "where" the spiritual half of werewolves are, and whether it's necessary to interact with that when you wish to interact with their bodies.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • Andrew Kaninchen
        Re: Vampires and Sin-Eaters: Death all the way. as Satchel mentioned, the Bound are metaphysically dead, and that means they're affected by the Death Arcanum and not the Life Arcanum. Most of a Sin-Eater's power set is also Death aligned; conversely, most of the non-physical Disciplines for a Vampire are Mind.

        totalgit
        Re: Werewolves: Life to affect their physical forms (which are alive); Spirit would interact with Werewolves in a way similar to the way Prime interacts with Mages: it can reveal their Primal Urge, how much Essence they have, what Gifts and Rites they posses, what their Renown is, &c. Could probably also provide 8- or 9-Again on power activation, or even rote-quality on Rites.


        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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        • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
          Andrew Kaninchen
          Re: Vampires and Sin-Eaters: Death all the way. as Satchel mentioned, the Bound are metaphysically dead, and that means they're affected by the Death Arcanum and not the Life Arcanum.
          I think this ignores that Life works on more stuff than just living beings. It's one of the most limited Arcana in that regard, but any Life spells that doesn't deal with the fact that the subject is alive would work just as fine on a Bound as on a human.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

            I think this ignores that Life works on more stuff than just living beings. It's one of the most limited Arcana in that regard, but any Life spells that doesn't deal with the fact that the subject is alive would work just as fine on a Bound as on a human.
            What other than living beings does Life work on? The only not-really-alive things that Life can affect are viruses.

            Are you saying spells like Heighten Senses should work on Sin-Eaters? What about Vampires?


            Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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            • I already gave an example: Life Veiling on a corpse to make it look alive. Purge Illness doesn't specify how it works, but I'd definitely allow it to affect non-living subject (corpses, foodstuff, etc). A Sheilding spell should definitely be able to prevent the spread of contagious diseases in both living and dead matter, or prevent decomposition based on biological processes. Food is even listed under the purview of Life, and most food tend to be dead long before it's considered food (or at least edible food).
              While Life is one of the most focused Arcana (up there with Spirit, poor Thyrsus), it does not necessarily have to be exclusively about the living, just like how Death definitely and demonstrably isn't exclusively about the dead.

              Edit: The name of an Arcanum reflects its themes, but it does not determine what's a valid subject for that Arcanum. No other Arcana works like that. Every spell has to be about Life in some way, but you can do that without a living subject. Compare to Space which is rarelt cast on an actual physical space rather than on a subject like an individual or an object. The nature of Life as an Arcanum makes spells on non-living subjects extremely rare, but that is no reason to believe it's a hard rule rather than a common consequence.
              Last edited by Tessie; 01-11-2021, 05:24 PM.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                I already gave an example: Life Veiling on a corpse to make it look alive. Purge Illness doesn't specify how it works, but I'd definitely allow it to affect non-living subject (corpses, foodstuff, etc). A Sheilding spell should definitely be able to prevent the spread of contagious diseases in both living and dead matter, or prevent decomposition based on biological processes. Food is even listed under the purview of Life, and most food tend to be dead long before it's considered food (or at least edible food).
                While Life is one of the most focused Arcana (up there with Spirit, poor Thyrsus), it does not necessarily have to be exclusively about the living, just like how Death definitely and demonstrably isn't exclusively about the dead.

                Edit: The name of an Arcanum reflects its themes, but it does not determine what's a valid subject for that Arcanum. No other Arcana works like that. Every spell has to be about Life in some way, but you can do that without a living subject. Compare to Space which is rarelt cast on an actual physical space rather than on a subject like an individual or an object. The nature of Life as an Arcanum makes spells on non-living subjects extremely rare, but that is no reason to believe it's a hard rule rather than a common consequence.
                So, if I'm understanding you right, you're saying Life can affect the undead so long as there's functional biology? So it could boost a Vampire using blush of life, or a Sin-Eater, because both have functioning biology even though they're not really "alive"?


                Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                  So, if I'm understanding you right, you're saying Life can affect the undead so long as there's functional biology? So it could boost a Vampire using blush of life, or a Sin-Eater, because both have functioning biology even though they're not really "alive"?
                  Depending on what you do, yes. The vampire is obviously more limited since they're temporarily pushing a few biological functions, but the Bound is a fully functional biological individual, physically speaking. Like I've already posted, Knit (which heals by boosting a body's own capacity to heal itself) couldn't work on the vampire because natural healing is not something the vampire is capable of, not even under the effects of Blush of Health. But it most definitely should work on the Bound because their body does heal naturally and healing is listed within the purview of Life.
                  That said, and I'm repeating myself yet again, the Bound is still metaphysically dead so any Life spell which depends on the subject being alive will simply not work at all. Meaning that Life-Force Assault does not work on the Bound because they literally have no "life-force" to assault.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • Does the astral in 2e work the same way it does in 1e? Like do non-mind spells still have the effect they do in the astral?

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                    • Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                      Does the astral in 2e work the same way it does in 1e? Like do non-mind spells still have the effect they do in the astral?
                      "The Astral Realms proper are made of thoughts, emotions, and other ephemeral creations of the soul, but the Arcana affect their creations using the same rules as they do on the material realm. Matter affects visions of stone, for instance."


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                      • Originally posted by Satchel View Post

                        "The Astral Realms proper are made of thoughts, emotions, and other ephemeral creations of the soul, but the Arcana affect their creations using the same rules as they do on the material realm. Matter affects visions of stone, for instance."
                        So they do. Thanks.

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                        • Hello kids! Quick question. Can a 1st dot Mind Spell allow you to perceive and communicate with Goetias in Twilight? I'm not talking about adding Mind 1 to the Spirit 1 spell "Exorcist's Eye".

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                          • Originally posted by Emerus View Post
                            Hello kids! Quick question. Can a 1st dot Mind Spell allow you to perceive and communicate with Goetias in Twilight? I'm not talking about adding Mind 1 to the Spirit 1 spell "Exorcist's Eye".
                            I've wondered about that. In practice I just let it work; didn't see any obvious reason to require Spirit 1.


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                            • Originally posted by Emerus View Post
                              Hello kids! Quick question. Can a 1st dot Mind Spell allow you to perceive and communicate with Goetias in Twilight? I'm not talking about adding Mind 1 to the Spirit 1 spell "Exorcist's Eye".
                              In general, that's how I imagine it works. To look through twilight is a spirit arcanum thing to do mind just lets you focus on goetia.

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                              • Technically a general Chronicles question, but mage is the most likely game line where this issue might come up: Is there an official rule how to handle one effect Clashing against multiple defenses from the same character, like a spell clashing against multiple layers of Shielding or Veiling spells?


                                Politeness is the lubricant of social intercourse.

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