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  • Who would win a clash of wills between a newly Awakened mage using Pneuma and an Archmaster?

    Both templates say that they automatically win a clash of wills.

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    • Originally posted by Emerus View Post
      Hello kids! Quick question. Can a 1st dot Mind Spell allow you to perceive and communicate with Goetias in Twilight? I'm not talking about adding Mind 1 to the Spirit 1 spell "Exorcist's Eye".
      Adding Mind 1 to Exorcist's Eye means you can see both Goetia and spirits in Twilight. The general consensus seems to be that all spells that can be extended from one type of ephemeral entity to the others can just be wholly replicated using only the Arcanum relevant to the type of entity you wish to affect. I.e. yes, you can just cast a Mind Unveiling spell to see Goetia in Twilight.


      Originally posted by saibot View Post
      Technically a general Chronicles question, but mage is the most likely game line where this issue might come up: Is there an official rule how to handle one effect Clashing against multiple defenses from the same character, like a spell clashing against multiple layers of Shielding or Veiling spells?
      There's no specific rules for handling stacked Clashes of Wills. So technically, if all spells are part of the same conflict, just roll for everyone and the winner has their effect take place. If there are multiple different conflicts, resolve them separately. I.e. if there's both a Shielding spell that would nullify incoming spells of a certain type as well as a Veiling spell that would provide false information, they create two different Clashes of Wills if a Knowing/Unveiling spell is cast that would trigger both protections. If the first CoW is won, then no information is gained at all. If the first CoW is lost but the second CoW is won, then false information is gained. Which is why you couldn't condense it to a single roll because the Shielding and the Veiling spells don't do the same thing and aren't in conflict with each other.

      However, spells have specific rules for stacking. As such, you generally can't end up in the first situation. When two different spells does the same thing, only the spell with the highest Potency is applied, meaning the attacker only has to win over a single opponent in the contested roll-off. Only if one of the protections comes from a non-spell source would you end up having to roll against multiple opponents like that.


      Originally posted by TakWrote View Post
      Who would win a clash of wills between a newly Awakened mage using Pneuma and an Archmaster?

      Both templates say that they automatically win a clash of wills.
      Consider both to be one tier above, allowing them to win against all "lesser" beings but not to those on the same tier. In practice, however, the Archmaster will basically always win because their minimum dice pool is greater than the maximum dice pool a newly Awakened can scrape together.
      Last edited by Tessie; 01-24-2021, 10:37 AM.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • I think they'd just Clash - same as two archmasters.


        Dave Brookshaw

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        • Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
          I think they'd just Clash - same as two archmasters.
          So archmasters don't have to spend mana?

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          • Hello all, if ascension takes both body and soul into the supernal, then is a wending sort of like a soul sarira?
            Last edited by Letalis; 01-25-2021, 10:55 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
              Hello all, if ascension takes both body and soul into the supernal, then is a wending sort of like a soul sarira?
              Not really. A Sarira is solidified Resonance in the form of the Ascended character's body, whereas a Wending is the unstable remnants of an archmage's Golden Road, whether it was abandoned by their Ascension or their death. If there's a comparison to be made between them and anything, it's the abandoned Lustrums of Supernal gods cast down during the time of the Celestial Ladder, but most characters won't encounter those without tagging along with an archmaster.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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              • If the Golden Road is part of the Archmaster's soul, why is it not ascended? Is it only a portion of the soul (i.e. the oneiros and any reflection that they might have in the temenos) that is ascended? It seems odd that something so integral to the archmaster remains while something trivial like the physical body is drawn into the supernal.

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                • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                  If the Golden Road is part of the Archmaster's soul,
                  It is not. It's the archmaster's connection to the Supernal, which runs through her soul just like the Astral Path she used to form through meditation, which is why Wendings are so much more fragile and unstable than an occupied Road is.

                  Once they've Ascended, the Golden Road is basically vestigial; the thing you may be thinking of is the Cintamani, which serves as the Supernal endpoint of the Golden Road where the symbols of "I'm an archmaster" and later "I'm Ascended" live along with whatever their Noumenon was.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                  • I feel as though archmasters of all people would not view the physical body as trivial; not when one looks at why they favour the term Phenomenal World over Fallen World.

                    Souls require bodies to function, as the Supernal requires the Phenomenal to have meaning. This isn't straight Gnosticism where everything physical is profane and disgusting and the product of a faulty God; even mages regard the world as predating their demiurges, who employed other means of imprisoning humanity.

                    With that in mind, I think it is perfectly fitting for the entirety of the mage to Ascend (barring a shell of resonance and unnecessary Supernal connection).

                    That and the element of Ascension kind of editing them out of the world, even if it was conceived as the soul being a seperable thing that floats off leaving the body behind.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                    • I suppose that my misunderstanding stems from that. I thought that the astral path (also golden road) was part of the awakened soul. Is the personal soul then just the oneiros? Which is then tethered to humanity's soul (temenos) and world soul (dreamtime) via the connection that is the astral path (golden road)?

                      Edit: Just rechecked IM, as I remembered where I got that notion from. There, the Golden Road is described as being the inside of a transhuman soul on pg. 12.
                      Last edited by Letalis; 01-27-2021, 08:21 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                        I suppose that my misunderstanding stems from that. I thought that the astral path (also golden road) was part of the awakened soul. Is the personal soul then just the oneiros? Which is then tethered to humanity's soul (temenos) and world soul (dreamtime) via the connection that is the astral path (golden road)?

                        Edit: Just rechecked IM, as I remembered where I got that notion from. There, the Golden Road is described as being the inside of a transhuman soul on pg. 12.
                        In truth, neither the Oneiros is the personal soul, if you remove a soul from someone the oneiros persists, but start to collapse.
                        So we can say that personal souls are like oneiros foundations

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                        • Thank you for your replies. Another question that has been bugging me is the love-hate relationship that many game lines in chronicles of darkness seem to have with level 6+ entities. I don't understand why they have "stats" explicitly mentioned (i.e. spirit rank goes from 1 - 10) but at the same time they (for the most part) seem to find it abhorrent to discuss any mechanics besides level for such beings. I realize that they should mostly be a vehicle for ST fiat, but why not give them a more skeletal framework to be fleshed out from?

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                          • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                            Thank you for your replies. Another question that has been bugging me is the love-hate relationship that many game lines in chronicles of darkness seem to have with level 6+ entities. I don't understand why they have "stats" explicitly mentioned (i.e. spirit rank goes from 1 - 10) but at the same time they (for the most part) seem to find it abhorrent to discuss any mechanics besides level for such beings. I realize that they should mostly be a vehicle for ST fiat, but why not give them a more skeletal framework to be fleshed out from?
                            Because they're plot devices. Imperial Mysteries provides mechanics to use in their interaction with similarly powerful beings, but most of them just work through smaller-scale actors and do the occasional big unique miracle.


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                            • Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                              I don't understand why they have "stats" explicitly mentioned (i.e. spirit rank goes from 1 - 10)
                              I think rank going that high is to just give a sense of hierarchy projecting upwards; a framework for how Firstborn is beneath Wolf is beneath Luna/Helios is beneath Gaia maybe is beneath God only knows.

                              Originally posted by Letalis
                              at the same time they (for the most part) seem to find it abhorrent to discuss any mechanics besides level for such beings. I realize that they should mostly be a vehicle for ST fiat, but why not give them a more skeletal framework to be fleshed out from?
                              I think one is running into a problem where stats might either undersell the thing or else be arbitrarily high enough that they might as well not be specified.

                              Other than that, their narrative role is probably more suited to producing effects that create crisis in the story, rather than direct contest or affliction.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                              • Does humans with the progressive soulless conditions still causes paradox?

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