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  • Do people think that the Ruling Practice of Matter would be sufficient to catalyse chemical reactions? Something like making coal dust ignite in the air without providing a spark.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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    • What is happening to a mage "under the hood" when the Supernal Harrowing condition is replacing/replaces his Wisdom with Integrity?


      “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
      My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
      Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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      • Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
        What is happening to a mage "under the hood" when the Supernal Harrowing condition is replacing/replaces his Wisdom with Integrity?
        The Abyss taints the Mage's soul in the same manner it taints the soul of a Sleeper.


        proin's Legacy hub

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        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
          Do people think that the Ruling Practice of Matter would be sufficient to catalyse chemical reactions? Something like making coal dust ignite in the air without providing a spark.

          I imagine its not enough by itself, since you are introducing more energy into the system. One possible solution is to Perfect its explosive properties (Forces could also be used for this), so room temperature heat would be enough. Alternatively, you could take a similar approach to Roy Mustang from FMA: tightly pack the element to be ignited into the target, creating a corridor from a possible ignition source to the target, such as a lighter. While you depend on having such a tool handy, it makes it viable with aonly Ruling. Mechanically speaking, I would model it after Lure & Repel for drawing the substance in.


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          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            Do people think that the Ruling Practice of Matter would be sufficient to catalyse chemical reactions? Something like making coal dust ignite in the air without providing a spark.
            I’d say that (for the specific coal dust example) making the dust ignite immediately without sparks is Ruling, but making the dust ignitable without sparks is Weaving.


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            • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

              The Abyss taints the Mage's soul in the same manner it taints the soul of a Sleeper.
              Surely it's got to be more than that though, because if it was just a taint on the soul you could swap souls with a sleepwalker to get a clean one.


              “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
              My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
              Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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              • Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                The Abyss taints the Mage's soul in the same manner it taints the soul of a Sleeper.


                They retain Integrity but they don't experience Dissonance or cause additional Paradox, so I don't think the Abyss has anything to do with it.



                Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                What is happening to a mage "under the hood" when the Supernal Harrowing condition is replacing/replaces his Wisdom with Integrity?
                Well, in character, that's probably going to amount to one of the Mysteries innate to the soul; I don't think mages at large have the best idea of how Integrity becomes Wisdom in the first place.

                Out of character, I would propose that the transition from Integrity to Wisdom entails the Gnosis, the Supernal connection to the Watchtower that is one's Path, suffuses the soul in a manner that stabilises and reinforces self-identity; a mage may not always be satisfied or honest about who they are, but they recognise it on a deep level that is preserved against the usual destabilising experiences of shocks to one's intimately held truths or connection to others. In place of that are the Acts of Hubris; the need to transition away from Integrity in the first place leave the line between soul and Gnosis in a certain state of tension. Humanity and magic being intertwined means that each exerts an effect on the other, as irresponsible use of magic and imbalanced sense of one's place in the wider pattern of existence places stress on that tension in the manner that destabilises Imagos, bleeds the Nimbus, and ultimately causes the soul to fracture and become Enraptured.

                The Harrowing Awakening might be concluded to be a form where the interconnection of Gnosis and the soul goes wrong in some fashion. It might rest on the Lucid themselves, that some part of their tests were accomplished in a manner that furthered the journey to sign the Watchtower but did not entail the proper self-reflection or other personal insight for the Gnosis to stabilise. It might be that sometimes the Adyton the Watchtower creates happens to be a kind that is too abstracted away from humanity to allow the usual insights, so a person is left with their own magic as an alien presence in their soul. Maybe it's a result of some rare and unusual disruption of the usual process on either side of the Abyss. That's on top of the conventional explanations of a person who was not really personally seeking Mysteries being pushed far enough by outside influences to have the confrontation with the Lie and get caught up by the Watchtower.

                In any event, the soul is not properly stabilised against the usual shocks to its stability, and worse than that is placed in constant proximity to an awareness and experience that destabilises it.

                At least you're not so hooked into Gnosis that it can pull your soul apart in Rapture.

                Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post

                Surely it's got to be more than that though, because if it was just a taint on the soul you could swap souls with a sleepwalker to get a clean one.
                Souls are interchangeable, but I don't think there's ever a sense that giving a person another's soul ever gives additional properties (possibly barring a few Reaping Legacies). Especially with the Awakened, with the Gnosis that holds the shape of their soul in that way meaning you retain Legacies even with soul-swapping. Perhaps it's a case where the aspects of oneself under the purview of subtle Arcana arise out of the soul, but feed back into it in turn; you can take the soul of a person with Integrity 1 and replace it with a donation from Integrity 10, but the qualities of their overall pattern formed from things like Mind, Fate, perhaps even Prime, they'll flow back in and shake the soul with the truth of the person's current state.

                Maybe the Awakened had better ideas about how to manage this kind of thing before the Tremere ran off with most of the soul lore.

                Mind, even if such soul replacement was going to work (a question to deal with the fact that Sleepwalkers also have Integrity), a Harrowed Banisher is still a mage and it takes a Master of Death to remove their soul.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • Ah, okay, I had forgotten some of the terminology so mistook the nature of the question.

                  Without proposing idea about the underlying cause of it, I'd say that the process of a regular mage becoming Harrowed by the exposure to a Banisher is one where the tension between Gnosis and stability of their soul gets resolved in a manner different from the usual slide towards Rapture, namely that it kind of recedes a bit in a manner that undermines and ultimately withdraws the usual stabilising effect. Or perhaps, given that it occurs on a dramatic failure for rolling one's Wisdom in the midst of an Act of Hubris, it's more like the Gnosis dislodging a bit from the soul as it adjusts, akin to a physical shock causing one's retinas to detach a bit.

                  I'd suggest that the experience in-character is of a mage starting to feel as though their confidence about who they are is beginning to slip. You haven't experienced breaking points about your concerns about your sexuality ever since you Awakened, but since you got close to that Banisher some of those harmful intrusive thoughts and mental loops from back then start to have sharp relief in your mind whenever your own powers hurt you. With the right push, you can fall back into that state again, the vulnerability to what you're scared of or unwilling to confront about yourself.

                  Oh, plus the stuff about being unable to reconcile oneself to the supernatural existing.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    Without proposing idea about the underlying cause of it
                    Alas, that's the bit I'm specificly interested in. Things that might serve as a starting point for an IC investigation into the phenomina.


                    “There are no rules. Only Principles and natural laws.” - Promethius
                    My Homebrew no longer fits in a signature, you can find an index of it here.
                    Full length fan-books I contributed too: Princess: the Hopeful, Leviathan: the Tempest, Dream Catchers

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                    • Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                      Alas, that's the bit I'm specificly interested in. Things that might serve as a starting point for an IC investigation into the phenomina.
                      Those who Awaken Harrowed are in a way only partially Awakened. They're full mages with everything that comes to mages, but their fundamental human nature has not been properly prepared/transformed to be fully compatible with being mages. Basically, it's like getting new hardware for your computer without bothering to install any drivers for it; even though the hardware might be fully functional, there's a disconnect between it and the rest of the computer that hasn't "learned" how to use the new hardware.
                      Where that simile breaks down is that being Harrowed is somehow contagious through long-term nimbi. But disregarding that, I'm pretty sure it's a deeply personal thing on the same metaphysical layer as other stuff you can't directly affect (more than temporary) like the Abyssal shard that turns people into Sleepers and the changes brought on by joining/advancing a Legacy or becoming a Tremere. Basically, irreversible template stuff.


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                      • Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                        Alas, that's the bit I'm specificly interested in. Things that might serve as a starting point for an IC investigation into the phenomina.
                        I suppose something along the lines that the trauma of the Harrowed soul, and the close proximity of the source of that trauma, predisposes it to be hostile to magic and mages, and at the same time the not entirely integrated Gnosis creates a kind of low pressure state. The resulting Nimbus has an odd quality that kind of entangles with the Nimbus of another mage with sufficient metaphysical proximity (to examination it might resemble the effects of a cabal theme, but far more intense), and in that tug of war the Banisher soul has the advantage.

                        Mind, I would think that's more of an allegorical explanation of what a mage might uncover with Scrutiny than a strictly accurate one. And it may speak to a certain bias in mages, a preference to interpret the evidence in terms of Harrowed Banishers being a kind of contaminant.

                        Because the other possibility is that Awakening doesn't rest as easy on mages as they like to think, that the Harrowed state calls out to doubts and weaknesses within them and that with enough time it makes a call the soul heeds to reject the Awakening and retreat back into the normalcy of their original state, which can only ever stall halfway.

                        I think the original Banishers book is worth reading or re-reading for the ideas and the general tone and mood it conveys around the point that Banishers present some really unsettling and compelling Mystery to mages who try too hard to figure them out. The details of the particular "possible secret sixth Order" stuff don't fit anymore, but I think the bones of the mage hunters being more than they appear at first glance.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          Do people think that the Ruling Practice of Matter would be sufficient to catalyse chemical reactions? Something like making coal dust ignite in the air without providing a spark.

                          Yeah. If and only if you are talking about a system that could spontaneously combust, though, so not just fuel-air, but dry, as well, for example.

                          (You can make things move with Ruling & you can generate a static charge by making things move.)

                          If nothing else, convert a small blob into something that will flare in its current environment, so Weaving would be the most you'd need.
                          Last edited by thenate; 07-18-2021, 09:56 PM.


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                          • Sorry by advance if the question has aready been asked, google fails me.

                            Strengthening or Weakening Temporal Sympathy should be Time 3 spells, respectively perfecting and fraying, just like Web-Weaver in Space? The section about temporal sympathy evokes changes to the connections but Time spells don't provide any exemples?

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                            • Originally posted by ganonso View Post
                              Sorry by advance if the question has aready been asked, google fails me.

                              Strengthening or Weakening Temporal Sympathy should be Time 3 spells, respectively perfecting and fraying, just like Web-Weaver in Space? The section about temporal sympathy evokes changes to the connections but Time spells don't provide any exemples?
                              Sounds legit, though I think not all Space sympathy spells can be translated directly to Time sympathy spells.

                              Have you searched in the Creative Thaumaturgy thread in this forum? It probably has some examples. I can guarantee it has at least one example, since I wrote one a few days ago.


                              MtAw Homebrew:
                              Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                              New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                              • Originally posted by ganonso View Post
                                The section about temporal sympathy evokes changes to the connections but Time spells don't provide any exemples?
                                I think the examples are really more in the table of sympathy strengths. It's not a direct function of those spells so much as what it means to have a given connection.


                                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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