Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Tessie]

Higher Gnosis is likely if you're going to use ritual casting for extra dice (since low Gnosis ritual intervals takes ages), meaning you already get extra dice from that and more Yantra slots. Higher Arcanum rating would also grant extra dice as well as extra Primary Factor steps.
You need a total of 12 factor steps (3 for Duration 1 month, and 9 for Potency 10), with up to 3 of those coming from a higher Arcanum rating. If stats are maxed, you end up at 15-(2*9)= -3 dice, and if you get the full +5 from extra ritual intervals you end up with a positive dice pool before you even start applying Willpower or Yantras. Yantras by themselves could also completely negate the penalties for such a character (5+4+3+2+2+2=18).
It's rare for someone to have a character with maxed Gnosis, but this demonstrates how large the margin could be.

[Isator Levi]

Higher Gnosis is likely if you're going to use ritual casting for extra dice (since low Gnosis ritual intervals takes ages), meaning you already get extra dice from that and more Yantra slots. Higher Arcanum rating would also grant extra dice as well as extra Primary Factor steps.
You need a total of 12 factor steps (3 for Duration 1 month, and 9 for Potency 10), with up to 3 of those coming from a higher Arcanum rating. If stats are maxed, you end up at 15-(2*9)= -3 dice, and if you get the full +5 from extra ritual intervals you end up with a positive dice pool before you even start applying Willpower or Yantras. Yantras by themselves could also completely negate the penalties for such a character (5+4+3+2+2+2=18).
It's rare for someone to have a character with maxed Gnosis, but this demonstrates how large the margin could be.

Sure it's easiest if maxed out, but I was trying to account for it being reported as something a player stated they were doing regularly, which presumably meant accessible early on.

Six hours on a spell at Gnosis 3, it's a lot but it can be managed.

[Avenging Hathor]

Avenging Hathor, if I can just continue addressing your spell question here:

I made a slight mistake in calculating the yantra bonus, 5+4+3 would be 12 dice not 11, so applying that before additional modifiers would put the pool at -1. With the full length ritual that puts it at 4 dice, or 7 with Willpower.

On top of that, Conditional Duration could be a consideration. If going with Duration as Primary Factor, the penalty for raising it to a month could be eliminated entirely just with an improbable condition ("when a person says oranges are blue while doing a handstand"), putting two dice back into the pool. Alternatively, Potency could be made Primary and the mage could be willing to go with a far more common condition ("when I encounter an orange"), and be left with the relatively more manageable -14 penalty. Either way, it might require less optimised yantras or give a few extra dice to the final pool to improve chances.

So to wrap it up:
A disciple of Prime should first of all make the following preparations:
- A very strong shadow name merit (to be roleplayed fully, shouldn't it need a bit of time, so that the "mage's legend" will strenghten and be known by the whole supernatural - magical world? The fluff seemed to imply that this is the case).
- For the character to learn a good rote, and then raising that rote's skill up to 5. (some rp time should pass as well? I'm SURE I found a thread about "rpg, learning skills, spending xps, and game time passing - how much game time should pass" but I since lost it )
- For some kind of blessings from spirits (sacraments... are those in MtAw 2ed? In Signs of sorcery?)
- Spending hours as a ritual spell. +5. I guess it would rise up to 6hrs for a 3 gnosis spell. Got it. Long, but doable.

...Possible conditional duration if the character has Fate 2 as well.
If the character has Fate 2, couldn't he also preventively use Exceptional luck, spending reach to make it affect his spellcasting rolls, and even more reach to give the 8 again quality? Am I getting this right so far?

[Isator Levi]

- A very strong shadow name merit (to be roleplayed fully, shouldn't it need a bit of time, so that the "mage's legend" will strenghten and be known by the whole supernatural - magical world? The fluff seemed to imply that this is the case).

I don't think a Shadow Name necessarily needs to be famous, just that high dots in the Merit means you go deep into it when you're doing mage stuff. You dress it up, you carry yourself differently and speak differently, you act like you're a separate person.

Note that in this case, the Shadow identity needs to be based on symbolism fitting the spell.

Getting the extra requires it to match with cabal symbolism as well.

- For the character to learn a good rote, and then raising that rote's skill up to 5. (some rp time should pass as well? I'm SURE I found a thread about "rpg, learning skills, spending xps, and game time passing - how much game time should pass" but I since lost it )

I think time developing Skills can often go during downtime. In any case, it is possible to start off with five dots in a Skill.

- For some kind of blessings from spirits (sacraments... are those in MtAw 2ed? In Signs of sorcery?)

Sacraments are yantras that get destroyed in the course of casting, whether it's tearing a photo in half, stabbing a wax figure, burning a sample of hair or melting an ice sculpture. The +3 bonus is if it's something otherworldly.

...Possible conditional duration if the character has Fate 2 as well.
If the character has Fate 2, couldn't he also preventively use Exceptional luck, spending reach to make it affect his spellcasting rolls, and even more reach to give the 8 again quality? Am I getting this right so far?

That's all correct.

Oh! Other mages who know Prime can contribute to the ritual with teamwork. If they have Prime 2 or higher, they roll the full dice pool and give successes to the leader, if they only have one dot they'd do Gnosis-3. Mages with no Prime function as a yantra, they're not really worth it here.

Signs of Sorcery added rules where mages who have practiced the ritual out in detail beforehand give a +2 bonus to the helpers, and +1 if they've done it before but not practiced this time. There's also a Mind 2 spell to link ritual participants together and give the secondary actors Potency as a dice bonus.

[Tessie]

Note that Exceptional Luck doesn't actually help. 8-Again increases the average amount of successes on a roll (as long as it's not a chance die) but it doesn't increase the chance of rolling at least one success which is the only thing that matters for getting this spell off.

[Isator Levi]

Note that Exceptional Luck doesn't actually help. 8-Again increases the average amount of successes on a roll (as long as it's not a chance die) but it doesn't increase the chance of rolling at least one success which is the only thing that matters for getting this spell off.

I find it a bit uncertain. In the list of general boon effects, the dice tricks are the only one listed with a Reach effect to let it affect spellcasting. But in Exceptional Luck, it lists a Reach price for just applying boon in general terms to spellcasting. Other spells that apply boons do not do that.

So is it a case where Exceptional Luck allows dice bonuses to be applied to spellcasting while every other spell that applies boons is limited only to providing dice tricks, or is it a case where it's the one time that it lists the Reach cost for dice tricks and is meant to be read in combination with the prior passage? Can Monkey's Paw or Sworn Oath provide 9- and 8-again for spellcasting if extra Reach is put into them, even though their specific entries don't state as such?

Can you use Exceptional Luck +2 Reach to apply the Inspired Condition to a spell?

In any case, Fools Rush In can be used to apply dice bonuses to spells. That might mean Exceptional Luck is not intended to, but they wouldn't be redundant if they both could; the dice bonus boon can only be provided to a particular kind of action, whereas Fools Rush In can provide its bonus to whatever action the character wishes, but it needs to be instant and unplanned (this would be how the spells aren't redundant even in their mundane aspects).

So one way or another, it's possible to use a Ruling of Fate to provide bonus dice to spellcasting, it just becomes a question of whether or not that would preclude ritual spellcasting.

[Satchel]

I find it a bit uncertain. In the list of general boon effects, the dice tricks are the only one listed with a Reach effect to let it affect spellcasting. But in Exceptional Luck, it lists a Reach price for just applying boon in general terms to spellcasting. Other spells that apply boons do not do that.

So is it a case where Exceptional Luck allows dice bonuses to be applied to spellcasting while every other spell that applies boons is limited only to providing dice tricks, or is it a case where it's the one time that it lists the Reach cost for dice tricks and is meant to be read in combination with the prior passage? Can Monkey's Paw or Sworn Oath provide 9- and 8-again for spellcasting if extra Reach is put into them, even though their specific entries don't state as such?

Can you use Exceptional Luck +2 Reach to apply the Inspired Condition to a spell?

This is an old conversation.

[Isator Levi]

I don't doubt it, but I was away from Mage for the best part of four years. I'll happily catch myself up when resources are pointed out.

[Satchel]

I don't doubt it, but I was away from Mage for the best part of four years. I'll happily catch myself up when resources are pointed out.

I linked a post that links four other posts, the earliest being from February of 2017. If you want other resources, they do not exist. A basic argument from the effects of allowing the spell to apply anything other than dice tricks to spellcasting is presented in the first of those linked posts.

[Isator Levi]

The "when" there was pointing towards the thing that had happened, not enquiring after something further. A "this is my characteristic" kind of statement rather than waiting on something.

Look, from what I've seen there some interesting and worthwhile points are made even if I don't 100% agree with them, and... well you seem tired of that conversation anyway so I'll just have it in mind for the future if ever it comes up with another new person rather than speculate on future discussions that are fresh to me and exhausting for you.

That's the best I can come up with. I just hope that any other conversations in future can be reasonable and cordial.

[Isator Levi]

Oh, for the sake of those spell calculations, I'd also point out that somebody with the correct Order and rote encoded with the right Skill could also get an additional die to the pool. With the suggested Skills that would favour the Arrow or Mysterium, but I don't think Crafts, Persuasion or Subterfuge are out of bounds as additional Skills that a Wards and Signs rote could be built with.

[ewrygn]

Hey all! A few questions from a soon-to-be Awakening ST. If the questions below are too complex to be in this topic, please let me know! In your experience, does magic in MtAw 2e feel magical? What do you do to prevent it from becoming straight up miracle working?

I have a more substantial background in Ascension, so I’m used to the characters’ capabilities being heavily limited by their beliefs and practices. In Awakening, however, it seems like mages possess a gnostic understanding of how to disrupt the Lie via their connection to the Supernal, their own beliefs becoming somewhat secondary. Am I correct in this reading or am I just overthinking? Yantras seem like a wonderful way to get my players more immersed in the mage fantasy, but are they enough? Maybe I should house rule a negative dice modifier for casting with no attached semiotics?

Sorry if this is incoherent. I’m glad there is a place to go to with this kind of questions.

[Satchel]

I have a more substantial background in Ascension, so I’m used to the characters’ capabilities being heavily limited by their beliefs and practices. In Awakening, however, it seems like mages possess a gnostic understanding of how to disrupt the Lie via their connection to the Supernal, their own beliefs becoming somewhat secondary. Am I correct in this reading or am I just overthinking? Yantras seem like a wonderful way to get my players more immersed in the mage fantasy, but are they enough? Maybe I should house rule a negative dice modifier for casting with no attached semiotics?

The main thing is that spell factors other than the primary one apply penalties to raise beyond the base level, which Yantras are mostly there to offset after you've gotten a base spellcasting pool above, say, five dice.

There's a Hunter supplement that briefly mentions an in-universe term for mages that's especially relevant in 2e now that the way the Long-Term Nimbus works offers more of a run-up to how the Enraptured work: PHFNs, or Psychics and Human Fortean Nexi. Being theoretically able to cast any spell anywhere with no semiotic grounding means that a mage is someone around whom weird things happen. The mnemonic aids of Yantras make it easier to get it to happen on-purpose and to-plan, and that's especially important when attempting to push the limits of your abilities like your Obsessions will tend to want you to.

(Remember also that Gnosis can't be raised without hitting some kind of milestone and that Arcana need enough Gnosis to support them and surpassing Path limitations requires instruction by an appropriately knowledgeable mentor.)

So I wouldn't say there's any need to penalize raw spellcasting, just… start from the bottom and keep the advancement process in mind. Rotes and Shadow Names and sacraments and other powerful common Yantras are especially important at the base of the Gnosis ladder, and that's where a lot of personalization can shine through.

[ewrygn]

There's a Hunter supplement that briefly mentions an in-universe term for mages that's especially relevant in 2e now that the way the Long-Term Nimbus works offers more of a run-up to how the Enraptured work: PHFNs, or Psychics and Human Fortean Nexi. Being theoretically able to cast any spell anywhere with no semiotic grounding means that a mage is The mnemonic aids of Yantras make it easier to get it to happen on-purpose and to-plan, and that's especially important when attempting to push the limits of your abilities like your Obsessions will tend to want you to.

Seeing Long-Term Nimbus/Entraptured Magi through the lens of HtV reframes these phenomena so nicely! I'm definitely getting around to reading more Hunter books, they seem like a good place to find inspirational material. Also, mage-as-someone around whom weird things happen is such a tasteful justification for non-semiotic spellcasting. Thank you so, so much. Your reply has resolved some of the few points of contention I've had with Awakening.

[KaiserAfini]

Regarding spells that impose Environmental Tilts, such as Swarm of Locusts and Control Weather, how wide is the area affected by them ? Would it be determined by the Area of Effect scale factor or would it instead be anything that seems thematically appropriate ?