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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    I mean, you say in the strictest sense of rules as written, but what about the idea would break rules?
    The ‘strictest’ was in the sense of “Well, no one said we can do it…”, as opposed to “Hey, no one said we can’t do it…”


    And now that you’ve thrown this idea at us, now I’m thinking of how the Carnival Melancholy’s Attainments could work…


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    • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

      The ‘strictest’ was in the sense of “Well, no one said we can do it…”, as opposed to “Hey, no one said we can’t do it…”


      And now that you’ve thrown this idea at us, now I’m thinking of how the Carnival Melancholy’s Attainments could work…
      In the Constaine show, he drunkenly enchants his friend with a warding spell. Whenever someone died, they would be unwillingly trapped by him, like a human soul jar. He would automatically use a soul to survive death once. Constantine's luck being what it is, everyone in the same pub as his friend died after he left the room, giving him a stock of 50 souls.

      I was thinking that could be a thing they could do, burn a soul reflexively to gain a powerful boon or hex. This means they could use Charmed to constantly survive deadly situations, or Steadfast and Inspired to succeed in key moments (that one appeal to the angry werewolf or blending in with the escaping crowd). A hex at sensory range can also work as a type of anti-casting, by breaking sensory range, decreasing the dice pool, etc. It could be very versatile, so long as their stock holds.

      Just an idea. I think the theme of the Legacy is cool, but they never got justifiable mechanical benefits that made it a tempting path to pursue. The revised Cloud Infinite, however, certainly did. Looking forward to how you update them.
      Last edited by KaiserAfini; 10-24-2021, 11:36 PM.


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      • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
        I think the theme of the Legacy is cool, but they never got justifiable mechanical benefits that made it a tempting path to pursue.
        I'd still maintain that in First Edition terms, the idea of Left-Handed and particularly Reaper Legacies as needing to constitute temptation was the wrong way to look at it, and that they were more an avenue for expressing a messed up perspective on the world. The Carnival Melancholy didn't need to be right about the idea that good fortune in the face of disaster was a zero sum game (arguably there are issues inherent to saying "that's correct, actually"), it just needed to be a thing they were really invested in validating for themselves.

        That being said, I would say that the more strictly codified and narrow scope of Second Edition Legacies provides a reasonable mechanical hook for Reaper characters being able to put a bit more out of them by way of fuelling them with souls (in the same way that the Hand of Destiny in Nameless and Accursed demonstrates that a Scelesti Legacy can use Befouled Attainments to improve factors beyond the usual parameters with Paradox), at the expense of being limited to only being functional with that fuel.

        But even then, I wouldn't portray it as the character having become a Reaper because they really wanted that Attainment to have a few extra steps of Potency then it would have had in a more benign Legacy.


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        • What do you suppose happens if you cast Rewrite History with indefinite duration to turn a vampire human, and they age to the point of death?


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          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            What do you suppose happens if you cast Rewrite History with indefinite duration to turn a vampire human, and they age to the point of death?
            *shrugs* Maybe a Revenant (the Vampire kind)


            MtAw Homebrew:
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            New 2E Legacies, expanded

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            • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              What do you suppose happens if you cast Rewrite History with indefinite duration to turn a vampire human, and they age to the point of death?
              You could read the spell as implying that the subject is still in the place that they are now:

              ...making her present self as though her life took a very different course.
              That might imply that if they died, they just wouldn't be able to be in the same place; so the whole spell just wouldn't work.

              I admit that's a pretty tenuous reading.


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              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                What do you suppose happens if you cast Rewrite History with indefinite duration to turn a vampire human, and they age to the point of death?
                A random result between several options:

                1- They become a slightly older-looking vampire of random clan/bloodline, as Fate has it that this person still became a Vampire;

                2- They become a VtR Revenant, turning upon death;

                3- They die of old age, but the ghost lingers. It may or may not be even more powerful than before, it may or may not know more about you than before. It would be interesting if the ghost considers the spell itself as the act that truly killed them;

                4- They die of old age, but the sheer amount of time paradoxes created (with or without the added power of Paradox) cause the Supernal or/and the Abyss to manifest something to take their due;

                5- They die and that's that. The universe says "fuck you causality" and that's that. Not game-breaking, just boring.


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                • Originally posted by Michael View Post

                  You could read the spell as implying that the subject is still in the place that they are now:



                  That might imply that if they died, they just wouldn't be able to be in the same place; so the whole spell just wouldn't work.

                  I admit that's a pretty tenuous reading.
                  I don't understand this, and think it may rise from a mistake about my meaning.

                  Scenario: a vampire was Embraced six months ago at the age of 21. A mage casts a Patterning of Time to rewrite his history so he was never Embraced, turning him into a 22 year old. The spell is indefinite. Fifty years later, the guy passes away of natural causes.

                  Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  5- They die and that's that. The universe says "fuck you causality" and that's that. Not game-breaking, just boring.
                  Well, not just that. It's not a Lasting spell, there's always the possibility it could be dispelled.

                  Rewrite History doesn't actually state a limitation of not working on the dead like Temporal Summoning does (although I still assume that writing premature death out of a person's past still doesn't recall their soul). A thing with a vampire could kind of be a reverse of that, although I'm not certain what would happen to their soul...

                  Mind, it may be that the principle that magic less than seven dots cannot alter templates. You can transform a timeline to remove an Embrace, but you don't really change the essential modification within them, it just kind of becomes really inert.


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                  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    Well, not just that. It's not a Lasting spell, there's always the possibility it could be dispelled.
                    I considered that, although I'd say a vampire that young becoming a mortal again isn't that big of a problem. But let me explore it a bit more.

                    Both a Revenant or a Ghost could still be viable targets for a dispel, turning the subject into a "living" vampire again.

                    The better suggestions I can give to keep the "Sanctity of Template", though, would be:

                    1- Fate lingers, as it have a stronger grasp on anything with a Template. Unless the Mage can unravel a very strong Fate-related effect, the target will become a Vampire again sooner or later, or the spell WILL be dispelled sooner or later;

                    2- The grasp of the Template on the target's soul can't be undone. As such the target becomes a vampire again despite it being now a Paradox. If the target dies first, they still rise again as what should be a Revenant, but is actually a full Kindred;

                    3- Abyss or/and Supernal shenanigans. You achieve it, yet reality is pissed off. The role of Vampires in the Supernal shouldn't be trifled with. Supernal entity comes, dispels the effect and proceeds to beat Mage.

                    Even if nothing exceptional seems to happen, Vampire have the Revenant rule to deal with it. A person touched by vampirism may become quite literally fated to come back as a pseudo-vampire that can become a full vampire through diablerie. This is the most likely state of the subject upon death, and a potential target for dispel.

                    One way or another there is the concept of damnation. It makes sense to think that the soul of a vampire doesn't leave the body under such circumstances as you imposed death upon it, but not Final Death. This corpse may have all kinds of weird properties because of the lingering cursed soul. Maybe the sun can cleanse it, and effectively kill the "vampire within", maybe not.

                    You can also apply all sorts of effects on the "living" subject during the spell effect, like Ghoul-like traits, weakness or allergy under the sun, and others. It may even be that the sun itself is able to "harm the spell" the same way it would harm a vampire. Disciplines trying to manifest could do the same. Many things that shouldn't unravel a common spell could start to unravel this one.


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                    • Question: Could a mage end a werewolf's blood rage early? It's come up in my contagion game, and I'm thinking it'd be something with Mind or Time. Though this has more created a somewhat narrative issue- the whole "I'm a danger to everyone around me" aspect of being a werewolf versus "I want my magic to actually be able to do things" aspect of being a mage.

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                      • Originally posted by EliFloof View Post
                        Question: Could a mage end a werewolf's blood rage early? It's come up in my contagion game, and I'm thinking it'd be something with Mind or Time. Though this has more created a somewhat narrative issue- the whole "I'm a danger to everyone around me" aspect of being a werewolf versus "I want my magic to actually be able to do things" aspect of being a mage.
                        I'd say it probably can.

                        One key aspect of any crossover is that its themes don't simply overlap with the main themes of a splat. Instead, you must be willing to sacrifice standard themes for the ones of the chronicle.

                        So the question should be what's more interesting for the game you're going to have. Mixing splats will deride their individual themes in favor of something new the chronicle creates.


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                        • Originally posted by EliFloof View Post
                          Question: Could a mage end a werewolf's blood rage early? It's come up in my contagion game, and I'm thinking it'd be something with Mind or Time. Though this has more created a somewhat narrative issue- the whole "I'm a danger to everyone around me" aspect of being a werewolf versus "I want my magic to actually be able to do things" aspect of being a mage.
                          Clear Thoughts (Mind 3) should be sufficient (even though Death Rage isn’t technically a Condition or Tilt), with the caveat that, not only does it trigger a Clash of Wills for suppressing a supernatural effect, but the Mage would also suffer the 2x Primal Urge penalty for trying to deter someone in Death Rage. (Presumably you just subtract that from the casting pool, but it’s a little weird since ordinarily the spell casting die pool isn’t resisted.) Also, don’t forget to account for the Garou’s increased Size in the Scale factor.
                          I think the difficulty in ending (or suppressing) Death Rage isn’t one of complexity, but magnitude. Many Mages will struggle to come up with the die pool necessary to overcome all of the penalties, especially at a moment’s notice.
                          Also, keep in mind how Mages tend to find indirect solutions to such problems. If all you care about is keeping the werewolf from eating people, a Ban (Space 3) will be easier to cast.
                          In any case, I think that difficulty and chance of failure inherent in the magic system should be sufficient to preserve the tension and danger of a werewolf’s rage, while still allowing the Mage to approach the situation on their terms.
                          Edit: it’s also worth noting that werewolves already have a very reliable method of ending Death Rages with the Elodoth’s auspice ability. So allowing a mage to attempt the same kind of thing shouldn’t cause much of a thematic problem.
                          Last edited by Scriptorian; 11-08-2021, 12:43 PM.


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                          • Originally posted by EliFloof View Post
                            Question: Could a mage end a werewolf's blood rage early? It's come up in my contagion game, and I'm thinking it'd be something with Mind or Time. Though this has more created a somewhat narrative issue- the whole "I'm a danger to everyone around me" aspect of being a werewolf versus "I want my magic to actually be able to do things" aspect of being a mage.
                            I think there's some excluded middle there. Magic can actually do a lot. It could do a lot of things using the specified Arcana to mitigate the danger of a werewolf in Kuruth even if it can't do the specific thing you're asking for. Like, you could give a werewolf hallucinations to attack instead of actual people or objects.

                            I think it's reasonable for Death Rage to be one of those innate mystical qualities that the non-Imperial Practices can't directly touch.


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                            • I think you should be able to do it with a Ruling practice, but it should require at least 2 extra reach and as mentioned above produce a clash of wills. I don't remember all the exact rules of Death Rage, but if they did include any kind of penalty to try to calm them down I would apply them to the CoW or somehow translate them to an increased Withstand rating instead of applying them directly to the spellcasting roll.

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                              • Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                                I don't remember all the exact rules of Death Rage, but if they did include any kind of penalty to try to calm them down I would apply them to the CoW
                                The rules for Kuruth (specifically Basu-im) present the point that mundane or supernatural attempts to influence, intimidate, or otherwise change the werewolf's course of action suffer a penalty equal to twice the Primal Urge, over and above Supernatural Tolerence. This doesn't seem to be a case of calming the Raging werewolf down, just pointing them in another direction.

                                However, it doesn't really work for dealing with spells. Supernatural Tolerance is mostly irrelevant to the question of whether Awakened magic works, and part of the point of Withstand is because external penalties really mess up the dynamic of mages taking intentional penalties to enhance spell factors.

                                But even that isn't about calming them down. Within Forsaken, I think the only thing that can stop Death Rage is the once per chapter Auspice Benefit of the Elodeth.

                                Well, whatever spell might be cast on them, it's at least going to need to take the penalty to cast on a subject of Size 7, for a start.



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