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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
    However, it doesn't really work for dealing with spells. Supernatural Tolerance is mostly irrelevant to the question of whether Awakened magic works, and part of the point of Withstand is because external penalties really mess up the dynamic of mages taking intentional penalties to enhance spell factors.

    But even that isn't about calming them down. Within Forsaken, I think the only thing that can stop Death Rage is the once per chapter Auspice Benefit of the Elodeth.
    That's why I say you can't do crossover without being willing to break the native themes of the splats in some ways.

    If you do it by RAW, then Mage rules don't work well. If you don't, you don't, you're still making calls and choosing one theme or the other. When you decide who takes precedence, the other have a thematic change, even if not a drastic rules change. The Uratha defies Supernal influence or Mages can rid them of Kuruth's greater problems.

    Going by RAW, I'd say that magic that enhances your ability to talk to the Uratha would work the best to keep things simple, as you increase a dice pool that can handle better the external penalty.


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    • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
      The Uratha defies Supernal influence
      I don't think it needs to be that far, just a matter of whether it's within available Practices.

      We can talk about themes, but I do not think the themes of Mage preclude there being things that are weird enough that it can be hard to figure out the applications of the Arcana to them or deep enough that some manipulations of them become the province of the archmasters. Hell, the history of the game is supposed to include the idea that the Awakened had greater understanding of ways to manipulate the soul before the Tremere absconded with most of that knowledge which has yet to be rediscovered, and the subject of creating them remains as yet unrealised to the very few Fifth Degree Masters that have made the attempt.

      Plus you get things like the description of Perfected Material as still fairly esoteric in Signs of Sorcery. Heck, coming at it from that angle, I could come around to the idea that some direct manipulations of Death Rage are within the powers of regular mages, but exactly how is not widely understood. A player could make some headway with it in a game, enough to accomplish something, but I think not quite comprehensively or reliably. Not the kind of thing to completely take the teeth out of a werewolf's potential to rampage.

      I do not think Mage: the Awakening has a theme of "go where you please and do as you wish" so much as "go somewhere it's maybe inadvisable to be and try to keep one step ahead of it". It would fit for running with Uratha to remain somewhat perilous.

      Besides, the real way to deal with a rampaging werewolf is to put a Ban around them, so long as they don't have the Gift Facet to let them break out of confinement.


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      • Mages being able to bring a halt to Kuruth doesn't seem that big a deal. Supernal magic might offer mitigation, but it's not a long-term solution unless you're going to go full archmastery and rewrite how werewolves work. It actually seems like a really good synergy of the two themes. The hubris of a mage thinking they can totally fix a werewolf, next to the werewolf who can trick themselves into thinking that the mages help means they have total control of their rage.


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        • Originally posted by Michael View Post
          Mages being able to bring a halt to Kuruth doesn't seem that big a deal. Supernal magic might offer mitigation, but it's not a long-term solution unless you're going to go full archmastery and rewrite how werewolves work.
          That's fine in the abstract, but my issue would be with what it does to the presence of Death Rage in actual play.

          Considering the range of possible triggers for it and how deviating to either end of Harmony can open those up a lot, dancing around Kuruth looks like a thing that is supposed to be a major part of games involving the Uratha, and a ready option to just shut it down immediately seems like it would leave how they play a lot more uninhibited.

          On a mechanical side, it also seems to me like it would allow the Gauru form to become a lot more accessible than it's supposed to be. Stay shifted into it for longer than your allotted turns or shift again before the natural reset, make sure friends are further away than enemies, and have somebody on standby to bring it back under control when enemies are dealt with or any of them stray out of bounds.


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          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            That's fine in the abstract, but my issue would be with what it does to the presence of Death Rage in actual play.
            That's actually my point. It seemed like you guys were getting caught up in abstractions rather than an actual game. Like...

            Considering the range of possible triggers for it and how deviating to either end of Harmony can open those up a lot, dancing around Kuruth looks like a thing that is supposed to be a major part of games involving the Uratha, and a ready option to just shut it down immediately seems like it would leave how they play a lot more uninhibited. On a mechanical side, it also seems to me like it would allow the Gauru form to become a lot more accessible than it's supposed to be. Stay shifted into it for longer than your allotted turns or shift again before the natural reset, make sure friends are further away than enemies, and have somebody on standby to bring it back under control when enemies are dealt with or any of them stray out of bounds.
            This is the kind of situation I'd want your troupe to be playing in. It feels awesome to coordinate properly together to overcome an inherent limitation; but it's a very brittle solution and easily made a problem. Like, if the Uratha and the mage aren't around each other for some reason.


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            • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
              That's fine in the abstract, but my issue would be with what it does to the presence of Death Rage in actual play.
              A mage with two dots in Death and Mind can outright stop a vampire's frenzy with a Ruling effect. Frenzy is sufficiently central to Vampire's actual play that interacting with Touchstones is required to safely clear the two Conditions whose effects are different mechanical expressions of "frenzy is harder to resist."

              Frenzy has an explicit "trying to get the vampire to act counter to the Beast's desires fails" rule statement. Death Rage does not have this restriction, when it ends you're not in the Killing Form anymore, and your personal trigger only applies to you once per night in any case.


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              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                That's fine in the abstract, but my issue would be with what it does to the presence of Death Rage in actual play.
                That's my point. Any decision becomes a change of how the game develops in actual play. It may be minor or greater, but it is there.

                You don't have to throw old themes out of the window, but you must be prepared to accept their changes, expected and unexpected.

                And this particular interaction is just one of many that will happen in actual play that can affect their themes.

                Originally posted by Michael View Post
                That's actually my point. It seemed like you guys were getting caught up in abstractions rather than an actual game. Like...
                The theme of Forsaken on the matter is that Kuruth is a constant danger that can't ever be downplayed. You either avoid it, treat it as a calamitous scenario, or accept the dire consequences that come with it.

                Giving the Uratha a tool to risk it and still avoid the consequences with some regularity changes nothing on the rules, but affects how it plays out in actual game.

                How reliable is this tool changes the theme of this tool in the game, but it is still a change in theme. The theme of Forsaken isn't that you have to worry with Kuruth if you're alone. It isn't Kuruth as a tempting option that may go wrong. It is risking Kuruth as the nuclear option or a catastrophic accident.

                You're not understanding what theme means. And an important point is that changing themes doesn't mean eliminating themes in exchange for nothing or weakening the game.

                It just means changing themes. Accepting that the game will play out differently and create other stories, some similar, some vert different. Some that twist old themes or explore them in ways the solo splat isn't meant to. It isn't good or bad, it just is.

                But I like to emphasize this because a lot of people treat some themes as holy cows that can't be touched, without considering context. And crossover have a tendency to bring the kind of context that deserves reconsideration of normal themes.


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                • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  You're not understanding what theme means.
                  No, I understand it fine. I just don't agree with your version.


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                  • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    A mage with two dots in Death and Mind can outright stop a vampire's frenzy with a Ruling effect.
                    Is that a Contagion Chronicle thing?


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                    • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      Is that a Contagion Chronicle thing?
                      It's from the Player's Guide, yes. Inciting frenzy without a trigger is easier (Compelling) but uses the same Arcana.


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                      • Do Mages have to be in an Order to use Mudra Yantras? The flavor text says that Mudras are taught by the orders but none of the mechanics text says that.

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                        • Originally posted by Chris_John View Post
                          Do Mages have to be in an Order to use Mudra Yantras? The flavor text says that Mudras are taught by the orders but none of the mechanics text says that.
                          Well if they weren’t a Master who’s using their own Rotes, they had to get the Rote from somewhere, and Order membership is the easiest way to solve that.


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                          • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                            Well if they weren’t a Master who’s using their own Rotes, they had to get the Rote from somewhere, and Order membership is the easiest way to solve that.

                            But RAW you do not need to be in an Order to have the 3 starting rotes.

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                            • Originally posted by Chris_John View Post


                              But RAW you do not need to be in an Order to have the 3 starting rotes.
                              We don’t? Still, I’m reasonably confident that the RAI is that most mage characters belong to an Order, even if Nameless. Or have a mentor (not necessarily a Mentor) who brought them in to the larger Awakened society, who could’ve passed on known Rotes.

                              EDIT: Wait, three starting Rotes? I though it was six dots worth of Rotes?
                              Last edited by 21C Hermit; 11-14-2021, 04:16 AM.


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                              • Originally posted by Chris_John View Post


                                But RAW you do not need to be in an Order to have the 3 starting rotes.
                                Dark eras starting mages scheme says "Starting Neolithic Awakened have no Rotes, although they earn Praxes as normal"

                                But i don t see any wrong with a character buying Mentor or Nameless order Status to justify starting with rotes

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