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  • Originally posted by Michael View Post
    No, I understand it fine. I just don't agree with your version.
    As a matter of fact, that sounded far less obtuse in my head before I posted. My bad anyway.


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    • Since they are not using Supernal magic, ghosts and spirits do not cause Quiescence, correct ? Which means that a mortal that is able to see and remember them does not necessarily should not be assumed to be a Sleepwalker ? They have unusual talents, but are still at risk of breaking points from witnessing Awakened magic ?


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      • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
        Since they are not using Supernal magic, ghosts and spirits do not cause Quiescence, correct ? Which means that a mortal that is able to see and remember them does not necessarily should not be assumed to be a Sleepwalker ? They have unusual talents, but are still at risk of breaking points from witnessing Awakened magic ?
        That is correct.


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        • Originally posted by Chris_John View Post
          But RAW you do not need to be in an Order to have the 3 starting rotes.
          Actually, you kinda do. The character creation chapter assumes the character is part of an Order and thus grants everything that membership in an Order normally entails: 3 Rotes, 1 dot of Occult, 1 dot of Order Status, the High Speech Merit, and 3 Rote Skills. The core book just doesn't directly spell out that a mage is assumed to get their first Rotes through their Order, but it's definitely implied and also confirmed in Signs of Sorcery (see below)
          Neither variant version of character creation (one in Dark Eras when Orders didn't exist yet, and one in Signs of Sorcery for the newly Awakened) assumes Order membership and thus doesn't grant any of those things.

          Character creation tends to assume that the character has some prior experience than someone who's just Awakened, and includes some additional stuff. That's why you start with 6 Arcana dots instead of just 3 that are limited to only the Ruling Arcana, as well as only 7 dots of Wisdom instead of the 8 dots you Awaken with (as described in Signs of Sorcery). That book also includes this passage for newly Awakened mages:
          "Orderless: The character does not have a dot in Occult, a dot in Order Status, rotes, rote skills, or the High Speech Merit."

          But as already mentioned, there's nothing wrong with giving a nameless mage some Rotes. You'll just have to come up with some other explanation for it. As long as you learn the Rote (i.e. pay an XP for it and not just cast it from a Grimoire) you also gain access to its Mudra.

          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
          EDIT: Wait, three starting Rotes? I though it was six dots worth of Rotes?
          That's the beta version.


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          • Originally posted by Tessie View Post

            That's the beta version.
            Ah, that explains it.


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            • Are Command Ghost/Command Spirit type spells always an Act of Hubris? If so/not, why?

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              • Originally posted by Hyuse View Post
                Are Command Ghost/Command Spirit type spells always an Act of Hubris? If so/not, why?

                I normally rule it as being an Act of Hubris if its against the creature's own interests. So if you make them move left just before a stealth attacker, then no harm. If they make them stop moving, stop attacking or stay in an area to create an opportunity to flee or negotiate, then no problem. The Act of Hubris happens when there is a deliberate and malicious subversion of their free will, or when the mage is intentionally shaming or humiliating the target.


                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


                  I normally rule it as being an Act of Hubris if its against the creature's own interests. So if you make them move left just before a stealth attacker, then no harm. If they make them stop moving, stop attacking or stay in an area to create an opportunity to flee or negotiate, then no problem. The Act of Hubris happens when there is a deliberate and malicious subversion of their free will, or when the mage is intentionally shaming or humiliating the target.

                  So would a Death mage commanding a ghost to keep a look out for him while he/she sneaks into a building, would an action in that vein be considered an Act of Hubris?

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                  • I think it's reasonable to let a Nameless character have the character creation rotes on the assumption that somebody was able to teach them some custom mudras and mnemonic recall principles, but maybe make it a complication in learning further rotes.

                    For Acts of Hubris, I'll point out that the list given for Understanding Wisdom includes binding a being to a task. I think it's reasonable to say that even for a spirit of fire, pinning it to work involving burning things can be an Act of Hubris, because the central thesis isn't being bad, it's acting without proper consideration for or comprehension of the consequences of your actions. The spirit might be perfectly fine with what it's been commanded to do, but the outcome of commanding it, both in what it does and in what it then becomes unable to do, may go off in directions that are not great. There are also elements of the ethics of taking choice away even if the subject might well choose to do that thing of their own accord, and how the mage is taking on responsibility for actions beyond themselves on a deep spiritual level.

                    That's not to say that Command Spirit would be an Act of Hubris on every occasion under those conditions; you could command it to do something of smaller scope or shorter term, that aren't throwing things too much out of harmony.

                    On the other hand, the provided list of Acts of Hubris is not supposed to be exhaustive or proscriptive, and the first paragraph about losing Wisdom states that different mages doing the same thing might not have the same risk of degeneration. So I'd say it can also account for things like how one generally portrays the character (the degree to which they act cautiously and observe spells in action carefully), or else what they're doing around this spell in particular to manage its risks. Commanding an ephemeral entity can be Hubris if it's an ad hoc thing then left to its own devices, but if you've got a good handle on the situation and supervise it, then I think you wouldn't need to roll.

                    In any event, I'd still say Wisdom is written to be something characters risk with decent frequency. It's just part of the general tone of the game, that mages really dance a lot with becoming unconcerned with what their actions cause.

                    (Incidentally, I'm strongly of the mind that actions that aren't magic should still be capable of risking Wisdom, because I see the whole point of that stat as being that the mage's Awakening and Gnosis makes them sensitive to a general interconnectedness of things that makes the management of their place in the grand scheme relevant to the stability of their souls. It's like, connection to the Supernal hardens your soul against those things that once risked its Integrity, but the substance of what reinforces it also creates a certain rigidity and is formed from a deeper presence in the Tapestry.)


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                    • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      It's from the Player's Guide, yes. Inciting frenzy without a trigger is easier (Compelling) but uses the same Arcana.
                      I've heard that there's something in there about Mummies and Time magic?


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                      • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        I've heard that there's something in there about Mummies and Time magic?
                        That'd be in Mummy 2e Core, specifying that Time and Fate spells cast on the Arisen add the highest used rating from those two Arcana to Paradox pools (and successful Paradox rolls apply the Abyssal Backlash Condition representing the Judges' attention a la "Paradox Conditions" from the Ecstatic Wind), and any spell of those two Arcana other than Knowing and Unveiling spells automatically fails (though a mage has no intrinsic knowledge of this fact).

                        Basically, the Judges have a tight grip on the Arisen's Names (i.e. their Fate Patterns, and by extension their Time Patterns) and don't take kindly to probing, much less attempting to alter them.


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                        • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                          That'd be in Mummy 2e Core
                          Their attitude about whether or not each game line is supposed to take the existence of the others as a given is so confusing to me.

                          In any case, such a thing suggests to me that there's reasonably a spectrum concerning how much of another supernatural being's nature can be affected by non-Imperial Awakened magic. The Arisen are at an extreme far end, but I think it would be reasonable for somebody to interpret Kuruth as being sacrosanct in the middle, even if I'd agree that the example of Frenzy also makes it reasonable to see mages being able to subordinate it.

                          To my mind, Frenzy doesn't quite have the oomph that Death Rage does, just enough to make me accepting of magic being able to mess with it in comparison to the weight of Kuruth.


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                          • Was it WoD, I'd put a vampire's Frenzy above a Garou's for that matter. Not the Rage itself, but while the Garou's frenzy is just loosing control of your rage, a vampire is being overtaken by an unholy alien force that's trying to eat their very soul.

                            But in CoD, Kuruth isn't just a frenzy, it is the spiritual manifestation of the pure concept of unstoppable fury. This beats curse in intensity on my book.


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                            • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                              But in CoD, Kuruth isn't just a frenzy, it is the spiritual manifestation of the pure concept of unstoppable fury. This beats curse in intensity on my book.
                              This is… unsubstantiated, to say the least. It's a bigger deal to werewolves, culturally, because it's a blackout where your sole aim is murder, destruction, and cannibalism, but the problems it presents for a werewolf don't go away from being able to use Awakened magic to pull you out of it any more than they do for a pack full of Elodoth.

                              Wasu-Im can be stopped by a Gift Facet that isn't even from the Rage set (and the Rage Facet to trigger Wasu-Im costs more to use and is more limited in its applicable frequency), and the rite to turn "roll an exceptional success to keep Soft Rage from turning into Hard Rage" into "roll a total of five successes" is rated at one dot, isn't tribally-locked, takes minutes to perform and lasts for a month.

                              Vampires need to spend Willpower to hold off frenzy or act contrary to the goal of the frenzy, and sufficiently disastrous failure (including any failure to steer the frenzy, which also costs Willpower) makes it last specifically until you risk losing a stat that costs Experience to raise, unless you're lucky enough to have a Touchstone present to make a roll that's harder the more powerful you are; successfully holding off frenzy makes later frenzies harder to resist, there's no limit to how many times you can risk frenzy in a night, and the only workarounds in common circulation involve enhancing your ability to steer.

                              Werewolves just need to roll Resolve + Composure to maintain lucidity, and the average PC Harmony range gives you several minutes to work with in addition to the above-mentioned rite and Facet and a Merit that lets you just shut it off with a single successful roll and a point of Willpower; again, most of the trigger conditions that don't involve being in the form built for murder can only affect you once per night. The main problem with Kuruth is that it's contagious at the moment of Hard Rage and a lot of really troublesome Gift Facets activate automatically and for free when you're Raging.

                              It might take conjunctional Spirit and the spell factor for affecting a Size 7 target to pull it off, but the problems of berserk hunter demigods being prone to fits of murderous rage are not substantially enshrined in the metaphysics for them to be significantly harder to pull back to lucidity than it is to stop a vampire from giving into the worst of their atavistic urges under stress.


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                              • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                                Was it WoD, I'd put a vampire's Frenzy above a Garou's for that matter. Not the Rage itself, but while the Garou's frenzy is just loosing control of your rage, a vampire is being overtaken by an unholy alien force that's trying to eat their very soul.

                                But in CoD, Kuruth isn't just a frenzy, it is the spiritual manifestation of the pure concept of unstoppable fury. This beats curse in intensity on my book.
                                Not to be nitpicking anything, but, uh, I thought it was the other way around…?


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