Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Isator Levi]

Hmm, this brings up more questions, like are ghosts represented in the Astral? Presumably in the Anima Mundi? If they are, think it would be possible to find the shattered “remains” of someone’s Oneiros? It probably wouldn’t be their actual Oneiros, but like the impression of one, much like a ghost, right?

There can be some Irises connecting the Underworld to places in the Temenos, especially the Realm of Death, so the odd ghost might drift in that way, but ghosts are neither native to the Astral nor naturally capable of travelling there via meditation as they do not have the souls that it exists within.

[TempleBuilder]

There can be some Irises connecting the Underworld to places in the Temenos, especially the Realm of Death, so the odd ghost might drift in that way, but ghosts are neither native to the Astral nor naturally capable of travelling there via meditation as they do not have the souls that it exists within.

Whoops, might have miscommunicated something there. I meant like a realm devoted towards representing a ghosts thoughts, not actually a ghost in the astral.

[Satchel]

Hmm, this brings up more questions, like are ghosts represented in the Astral?

The 1e Astral Realms book discussed the unusual phenomenon of ghosts turning up in the Realm of Death or elsewhere in the Temenos, and there are a few animal ghosts that show up in the Dreaming Earth. They're slightly more common to come across than spirits, but unless you're looking for them you might confuse them with normal goetia — like Temenotic Residents, many ghosts in the Astral don't realize they're in a shared dream-space.

Presumably in the Anima Mundi? If they are, think it would be possible to find the shattered “remains” of someone’s Oneiros? It probably wouldn’t be their actual Oneiros, but like the impression of one, much like a ghost, right?

The Oneiros only debatably exists as an experienceable world when someone's not exploring it, and ghosts aren't souls. Depending on how you interpret the material in the Beast Player's Guide to interact with the Awakened approach to the Astral, you might be able to use Time spells to restore lost connections between the Temenos and a dead individual's Oneiros in the same way one visits an isolated Temenos realm, but the greater plasticity and instability of the individual soul is such that even that might be trickier than just time-traveling back to a point where the Oneiros was intact and making the journey there directly.

[Isator Levi]

I meant like a realm devoted towards representing a ghosts thoughts, not actually a ghost in the astral.

They don't have the presence to contribute to the Astral.

I believe that humans and Beasts are the only thing that really do (although werewolves have a connection to the Anima Mundi, a Realm which is not shaped by cultural perspective).

[Tessie]

They don't have the presence to contribute to the Astral.

I believe that humans and Beasts are the only thing that really do (although werewolves have a connection to the Anima Mundi, a Realm which is not shaped by cultural perspective).

Humans and mages contribute to the Astral (in the form of personal Oneiroi and collectively to Temenotic realms). Beasts have a unique relationship to the Astral because one of the two entities that form a Beast is native.

[monteparnas]

I believe that humans and Beasts are the only thing that really do (although werewolves have a connection to the Anima Mundi, a Realm which is not shaped by cultural perspective).

If they have souls, as twisted as they may be, why Vampires, Changelings and Sin Eaters don't have Oneiroi and weight in the Temenos?

[TempleBuilder]

They don't have the presence to contribute to the Astral.

I believe that humans and Beasts are the only thing that really do (although werewolves have a connection to the Anima Mundi, a Realm which is not shaped by cultural perspective).

Maybe this is head-canon that I forgot wasn’t canon, but I thought everything that thinks contributes to the Astral somewhere. Normally rocks can’t think, (that I know of anyway,) but everything has a spirit. And spirit thoughts contribute to the Anima Mundi. That’s why you can have a Werewolf connected to Anima Mundi, because they are literally half spirit. I’d argue they should be connected to the Temenos too, because werewolf are half human too. But if Deviants aren’t connected, werewolf definitely aren’t. I guess the question on whether something can connect to the Temenos is the same as asking if it’s human.

[Tessie]

If they have souls, as twisted as they may be, why Vampires, Changelings and Sin Eaters don't have Oneiroi and weight in the Temenos?

Vampires and changelings don't have human or near-human souls, which is required for linking up to the Temenos and quite possibly also to having an Oneiros. They have equivalents that are too far removed to count as human for such purposes. Mages are the only supers that have souls that are human-like enough to still link up to the Temenos.

Bound/Sin-Eaters straight up don't have souls.

[Satchel]

Maybe this is head-canon that I forgot wasn’t canon, but I thought everything that thinks contributes to the Astral somewhere. Normally rocks can’t think, (that I know of anyway,) but everything has a spirit. And spirit thoughts contribute to the Anima Mundi. That’s why you can have a Werewolf connected to Anima Mundi, because they are literally half spirit. I’d argue they should be connected to the Temenos too, because werewolf are half human too. But if Deviants aren’t connected, werewolf definitely aren’t. I guess the question on whether something can connect to the Temenos is the same as asking if it’s human.

Werewolves' souls aren't entirely human, changelings' souls were damaged by the Thorns and their durance, and vampires straight-up shouldn't have souls anymore by the common metaphysics. All three keep Touchstones to maintain their ability to relate to the world around them in a healthy fashion.

Of the other three splats that have non-optional Touchstones, Sin-Eaters are the only ones who don't have a human soul and are instead a pair of ghosts managing unifying pursuits in a way not unlike those produced by a deviant's Conviction and Loyalty; hunters have tweaked their Integrity to work in tiers at the cost of alienating their fellow mortals, and when the Arisen have Touchstones, it's in service of developing their historical perspective by attending to the strengths and weaknesses of their companions.

The Astral is made of ideas. It's the universal unconscious, which is part of why the pettier drives are so well-represented there. Whether because their experiences have changed their mindset too far to align with the common thoughts of humanity or because the forces that power their magic are jealous and alien gods, supernatural beings who've stopped being human and aren't part monster-born-of-human-culture don't contribute to the Temenos directly through their thoughts and dreams, and the Anima Mundi is… bigger than werewolves, vampires, et cetera — whatever they could contribute would be a drop in the bucket even before the Ecstatic Wind swept it across the world-soul in a thousand-thousand pieces.

Spirits don't have free will, being the sum of their parts, and human ghosts are in many ways the photo negative of a soul in trauma, bound up in the circumstances of their creation and buried under so much Underworld poison; their influence on human culture is largely limited to the same indirect means that everyone else uses.

[Isator Levi]

Humans and mages contribute to the Astral

Mages are entirely human, it was not an addition I thought worth making.

In Chronicles of Darkness terms, I'd say something becomes inhuman when, like ephemeral entities and horrors, its bodily structure and capabilities undergoes some major alterations and it acquires weird compulsions and weaknesses (basically equivalent to a Ban and Bane).

There's no substance mages will take aggravated damage from for magical reasons.

[TempleBuilder]

Mages are entirely human, it was not an addition I thought worth making.

In Chronicles of Darkness terms, I'd say something becomes inhuman when, like ephemeral entities and horrors, its bodily structure and capabilities undergoes some major alterations and it acquires weird compulsions and weaknesses (basically equivalent to a Ban and Bane).

There's no substance mages will take aggravated damage from for magical reasons.

Not that this is wrong, I actually this this is a pretty interesting take, but aren’t there sorcerers that gain bans and/or banes for power over stuff? (Not Mages, but that would be a pretty interesting legacy)

[21C Hermit]

Not that this is wrong, I actually this this is a pretty interesting take, but aren’t there sorcerers that gain bans and/or banes for power over stuff? (Not Mages, but that would be a pretty interesting legacy)

Shadow Occultists from Werewolf (Shunned by the Moon)?

[TempleBuilder]

Shadow Occultists from Werewolf (Shunned by the Moon)?

Maybe? Considering I don’t own that book, I’m not sure. But that sounds right, it was something shadow related. I was just pointing out that technically you can stitch bans and banes on a human without them becoming a monster. Can those Shadow Occultists lose their banes and/or banes?

[21C Hermit]

Maybe? Considering I don’t own that book, I’m not sure. But that sounds right, it was something shadow related. I was just pointing out that technically you can stitch bans and banes on a human without them becoming a monster. Can those Shadow Occultists lose their banes and/or banes?

Iirc, they first get their patron spirit’s Bane, and a Taboo modeled from their patron spirit’s Ban, and then can build up more Influence dots at the cost of picking up more Taboos. Though I’m saying this purely from memory at the moment, so take it with a grain of salt.

Also, even without bringing in Werewolf, the 2E official (and partial) writeup for the Keepers of the Covenant mention the potential of mages getting Claimed, so there’s that avenue too.

[Isator Levi]

Maybe? Considering I don’t own that book, I’m not sure. But that sounds right, it was something shadow related. I was just pointing out that technically you can stitch bans and banes on a human without them becoming a monster. Can those Shadow Occultists lose their banes and/or banes?

I'd have questions about how much such power is really integrated into the subject so that the compulsion and weakness could be considered an aspect of themselves rather than innate to a power they're touching off of.

Still, there would also be the point about a change in their physical nature; something equivalent to how the vampires get the undead body, need Vitae to rise each night and can spend it to enhance Attributes, and can go into a torpid state.

If it's a case that somebody has integrated a power that is also altering them at that level, then I would think they're drifting further from humanity in a metaphysical sense.