Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Tessie]

Mages are entirely human, it was not an addition I thought worth making.

Mages are not entirely humans. That's the whole point of having mages as a splat. Not to mention that souls are key to how something links up to the Astral, and mages specifically don't have human souls. Just souls that are close enough that one can be transformed into the other (and likely vice versa).

[Isator Levi]

Mages are not entirely humans. That's the whole point of having mages as a splat.

Hunters are a splat, all the way down to unmodified cell level. The blue book primarily portrays the humans who fumble in ignorance and weakness, and all additional ones depict characters with more agency in the Chronicles of Darkness.

mages specifically don't have human souls.

Where is that specified?

I'll point out that we've got at least one Order who is very much of the idea that mages are not distinguished from humanity, seeing the Imperium Mysteriorum as the sacred right of all of them.

It's less direct in the Free Council creed, but still the implication of human work containing magical secrets.

[monteparnas]

One question I have in this regard:

Given how little impact they would have anyway due to their low numbers, what would effectively change in the game if all splats had still Oneiroi and impact on the Temenos? And what would that imply?

[TempleBuilder]

Mages are not entirely humans. That's the whole point of having mages as a splat. Not to mention that souls are key to how something links up to the Astral, and mages specifically don't have human souls. Just souls that are close enough that one can be transformed into the other (and likely vice versa).

Where is that specified?

I'll point out that we've got at least one Order who is very much of the idea that mages are not distinguished from humanity, seeing the Imperium Mysteriorum as the sacred right of all of them.

It's less direct in the Free Council creed, but still the implication of human work containing magical secrets.

Funny, you both are right. Technically, Mages have their souls reforged in the fires of Supernal truth. This makes them Human . As opposed to human. They are what Humanity should be, but aren’t. Does this make them inhuman? A Mage’s connection to the Temenos implies that it does not.

One question I have in this regard:

Given how little impact they would have anyway due to their low numbers, what would effectively change in the game if all splats had still Oneiroi and impact on the Temenos? And what would that imply?

That would imply that they all were still human, at least when considered from our current viewpoint. It technically goes against several game lines themes, like Promethean and Deviant. That being said I don’t feel it would mess up the Temenos at all, there just might be a spot representing that creatures types creation. Enter Changeling’s and Deviant’s at your own risk.

[Satchel]

Given how little impact they would have anyway due to their low numbers, what would effectively change in the game if all splats had still Oneiroi and impact on the Temenos? And what would that imply?

It creates a lopsided power dynamic where the splats with innate ability to access the Astral can poke around in the minds of monsters and steer their cultures through Temenotic meddling and the others can't; the headcount needed to add a shared idea to the Temenos is two, and smaller groups are easier to influence through actions in the Temenos.

By the same token, the ability to create metaphorical solutions (however temporary) to mental and emotional issues in the Oneiros would either shortcut past many of the problems various splats deal with or necessitate hard-coding the ways mystically-backed traumas were resistant to such handling; if access to the Astral isn't limited to the splats that already have it, then the question also arises of whether non-mages use the same (mostly geographical) methods to meditate into their Oneiros or something more particular to their nature, either of which can tilt the focus of How Well-Adjusted/Influential Characters Are Placed re: local resource allocation.

It'd be an interesting setting hack either way, to be sure, but Mage and Beast occupy the particular niche where self-reflection and mass social influence through metaphor-space are appropriate compared to the more personal and on-the-ground approaches everyone else is stuck with in the setting as-written.

[Tessie]

Where is that specified?

Not explicitly stated, but the differences between human and Awakened souls are numerous enough that I think it should be given:
There's two different spells for removing human and Awakened souls. A soulless mage gaining a human soul as replacement recovers much slower than if it was an Awakened soul. The "health" of human souls are measured by Integrity, while mages have Wisdom instead.
Tremere from Nameless & Accursed gives additional examples: Only Awakened souls can be used as payment during the Hollowing. A second Awakened soul has to be consumed to finalise the Hollowing. Awakened souls grants vastly more sustenance than human souls for Tremere. And again, there's two different powers for removing human and Awakened souls.

[Isator Levi]

It's mostly a difference of ignorance.

[KaiserAfini]

What symbolism is associated with Azoth ? I imagine the divine fire has associations with Creation, Life, Change, Destruction and Transformation, but are there any others I have missed ?

Its mentioned that everyone has Pyros and that its the fuel of Azoth, but does that mean only living beings or only beings with souls? If a Reaper were to feed souls to it, would the Promethean gain a temporary boost due to having a fuel it could burn through more slowly/efficiently?

[Satchel]

What symbolism is associated with Azoth ? I imagine the divine fire has associations with Creation, Life, Change, Destruction and Transformation, but are there any others I have missed ?

Per the Player's Guide to the Contagion Chronicle, Pyros can be used as a Yantra for spells symbolically resonant with change, transformation, alchemy, or causality.

Its mentioned that everyone has Pyros and that its the fuel of Azoth,

Where? Every Promethean has Pyros, generated by their Azoth, which is the palpable form of the Divine Fire condensed by Promethean creation rituals, but Pyros as an energy is spread thin just about everywhere — sleeping in proximity to their resonant element and existing when the sun rises generate Pyros just as readily as spending time around humans (or, for sublimati, eating human flesh in place of Promethean flesh).

If a Reaper were to feed souls to it, would the Promethean gain a temporary boost due to having a fuel it could burn through more slowly/efficiently?

Prometheans don't eat Pyros (they eat food, however broadened their palate may be for defining that term) and their Azoth is not powered by souls, so no.

[Hyuse]

I found a post from Dave B. that says that Acts of Hubris can be mundane action. Most of the list of Acts of Hubris can easily be considered mundane, the only of which would be soul stone creation (but self mutilation is mundane as well), using magic in front of sleepers, and using magic instead of mundane action. Wouldn't Legacy Attainments rules of "using Legacy Attainments do not provoke Acts of Hubris", wouldn't this just mean that using magic in front of sleepers or if you were enlightened would be the only thing stopped by the Legacy Attainment?

Is there a more in depth look at Act of Hubris, Wisdom, Inurement, and Legacy Attainments that isn't fragmented lines in different parts of different books?

[Isator Levi]

Wouldn't Legacy Attainments rules of "using Legacy Attainments do not provoke Acts of Hubris", wouldn't this just mean that using magic in front of sleepers or if you were enlightened would be the only thing stopped by the Legacy Attainment?

I don't think so by the explanation given in the Legacy section of how it works. Acts of Hubris are based on inadequacies in awareness and responsibility, Attainments are based in a deep integration of the power's meaning into oneself.

You can be accused of using an Attainment to do something terrible, but not of being unaware of what you're doing, and that's the thing that matters for Wisdom.

Is there a more in depth look at Act of Hubris, Wisdom, Inurement, and Legacy Attainments that isn't fragmented lines in different parts of different books?

The most dedicated look at Wisdom would be in Tome of the Mysteries, although that would be a little out-of-date now.

[TempleBuilder]

Been a while since I asked a bunch of odd questions. Today is space themed.
1) Can a Weaving of Death and Matter make a vacuum breathable? Or edible?
2) If I’m moving near the speed of light, and use Forces to move faster than the speed of light, do I start to go back in time?
3) What’s the best way reduce the mental fatigue of the long journeys between the stars? (Opinion is fine)
4) If I wanted to make a starship out of imbued items, and maybe a building or three, what would the various Orders think about it?
5) How weird is “Explore the Universe!” as a obsession considered in game?

[Isator Levi]

1) Can a Weaving of Death and Matter make a vacuum breathable? Or edible?

I think even in terms of the Supernal, an absence of anything is not itself a thing, so in vaccum you have nothing to target.

I think a Weaving of Death could make yourself sufficiently undead to not require breathing, and Matter might aid in retaining and recycling air.

2) If I’m moving near the speed of light, and use Forces to move faster than the speed of light, do I start to go back in time?

I think the principles of it as a spell would override direct physical implications. The symbols would be concerned only with going faster.

It would be like how increasing regular speed with Forces is not concerned with exerting pressure on your own body.

3) What’s the best way reduce the mental fatigue of the long journeys between the stars? (Opinion is fine)

Probably Perfecting of Mind, although perhaps inadvisable to become dependent on it; that kind of thing can make you Rapt.

4) If I wanted to make a starship out of imbued items, and maybe a building or three, what would the various Orders think about it?

For the Pentacle, a strange eccentricity, and likely unacceptable to use community resources, but otherwise you do you.

5) How weird is “Explore the Universe!” as a obsession considered in game?

I'd say many would look a bit askance at something so directed away from bigger concerns of their culture, and a bit of a waste to pursue something without guaranteed returns, but the Awakened are free to follow such wishes.

Might be encouraged to try the less extreme route of traveling the Sidereal Wastes in the Astral.

(Mind, the easiest way to journey through space is to seperate yourself from the flow of time with conditional duration to return when you encounter something.)

[TempleBuilder]

Thank you for responding!

I think even in terms of the Supernal, an absence of anything is not itself a thing, so in vaccum you have nothing to target.

Hmm. Wasn’t there a thought experiment on these forums where someone created a “Null”, or a thing that was no thing? Maybe similar principles apply? Possibly a bit of a stretch.

I think a Weaving of Death could make yourself sufficiently undead to not require breathing, and Matter might aid in retaining and recycling air.

I think Death or Matter is essential for this project. Life might be able to suffice for food and water, but that’s more long term spells that risk Rapture, and I’m pretty sure Life can’t make you immune to breathing. At least, I’m unaware of any creature that doesn’t require the intake of something as breathe like. (Not a Biologist, if there is one, my bad) With the risk of Rapture, I think Matter actually edges out the other options. I don’t think bringing a refreshing air bubble with you will risk you going Rapt, and you can always make something food like from the air. With some Death you can make food from your own Shadow, which is nice. Or I guess food from Light with Forces.

I think the principles of it as a spell would override direct physical implications. The symbols would be concerned only with going faster.

It would be like how increasing regular speed with Forces is not concerned with exerting pressure on your own body.

Fair enough.

Probably Perfecting of Mind, although perhaps inadvisable to become dependent on it; that kind of thing can make you Rapt.

Yeah, I’m pretty sure any option for this is risking Rapture. Maybe some Time manipulation can help.

For the Pentacle, a strange eccentricity, and likely unacceptable to use community resources, but otherwise you do you.

“But think of the Mysteries we could find, think of the Yantras!”

I'd say many would look a bit askance at something so directed away from bigger concerns of their culture, and a bit of a waste to pursue something without guaranteed returns, but the Awakened are free to follow such wishes.

I can see the effective abandonment of society being a bit of a problem for most of the Orders. Hmm, maybe the Mysterium might appreciate what a Mage is trying to do by traveling and exploring space?

Might be encouraged to try the less extreme route of traveling the Sidereal Wastes in the Astral.

(Mind, the easiest way to journey through space is to seperate yourself from the flow of time with conditional duration to return when you encounter something.)

Can we just take a moment to appreciate these sentiments? It’s just so Mage. Yeah, it’s more socially acceptable and safer to go explore the collective soul of the universe than try and physically go through space. And the best way to travel is to remove yourself from Time. I love this game.

[Isator Levi]

Hmm. Wasn’t there a thought experiment on these forums where someone created a “Null”, or a thing that was no thing? Maybe similar principles apply? Possibly a bit of a stretch.

I wouldn't know myself, I was out of the loop for the first few years of Second Edition.

I think Death or Matter is essential for this project. Life might be able to suffice for food and water, but that’s more long term spells that risk Rapture, and I’m pretty sure Life can’t make you immune to breathing. At least, I’m unaware of any creature that doesn’t require the intake of something as breathe like. (Not a Biologist, if there is one, my bad)

All organisms need respiration, but there are forms of it that don't require oxygen or carbon dioxide (mostly done by microorganisms). Still needs something like nitrates or sulfates, though.

I think Life could dramatically lower one's requirements, but not totally eliminate them, yeah. At least not before archmastery.

I think Matter actually edges out the other options. I don’t think bringing a refreshing air bubble with you will risk you going Rapt, and you can always make something food like from the air. With some Death you can make food from your own Shadow, which is nice. Or I guess food from Light with Forces.

Well converting things that are not food into food is going to require Patterning, although that leads back to my thought that imbibing something that has been transformed can be a dubious proposition.

“But think of the Mysteries we could find, think of the Yantras!”

I'd say there's a question of the "we" there, if many expect the trip to be one-way (at least as far as those left behind are around for).

It depends on how one wants to handle the subject of Space magic to instantly return from trips far beyond the Earth. I'm thinking about the Dark Eras Mysteries where it was hard enough to teleport away from Caribbean desert islands or across the continental US to think that being so far removed comes with its own obstacles.

I can see the effective abandonment of society being a bit of a problem for most of the Orders. Hmm, maybe the Mysterium might appreciate what a Mage is trying to do by traveling and exploring space?

I'd say Mysterium would be concerned but accepting if a Sophiad led beyond the Earth, Arrow would acknowledge somebody seeking the challenge, Ladder and Council could make a case for staking a claim for humanity and even Guardians could have an interest in what the Lie and Abyss are like far removed from humanity.

Can we just take a moment to appreciate these sentiments? It’s just so Mage. Yeah, it’s more socially acceptable and safer to go explore the collective soul of the universe than try and physically go through space.

Quicker too. You can spend subjective centuries crossing the Astral reflection of deep space (generally agreed to mirror the real thing) while only days pass in the waking world.

Although perhaps more accessible than safe; you're constantly bombarded with Ecstatic Winds like that, unless some greater power protects you.

And the best way to travel is to remove yourself from Time.

I often think about implications of that spell being made indefinite. I picture a scenario where mages exploring some Roman catacomb come across a temporal distortion and dispel it, and before them materialises a young woman speaking Latin whom an ancient mage maliciously sealed from time for rejecting his advances. The cabal who found her had to balance between the desire to get her first hand accounts of everything and gently help her adjust to the experience.

Sleepwalker, to keep things a bit simpler. Probably already associated with and a bit knowing about mages.