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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    Without going into too much detail about what the nature of the Astral Realms and Goetia are, Goetia from an Oneiros would be distinct from Ochemata in that they're not really formed from the stuff of the soul so much as constructs of personality traits. Like, they're aspects of the soul insofar as that's where the Oneiros in which they reside is found, but otherwise something like the Goetia of your wrath or your fear of spiders or the bad memory of your disastrous first date are far smaller entities. And it's dangerous because while they're summoned, those traits aren't in your head informing your behaviours.
    I remembering more of that from 1st Ed now. And i presume if you summon a goetia of your virtue it prevents you from using your virtue's mechanical benefits, but is also a more powerful (rank 2?) Goetia?

    Still, doesn't have an awakened soul, so can't do what an Ochemata can do. Can it learn like a Psychic Genesis created mind presumably can (and thus gain beats)? Since both are treated as Goetia, should they both be able to have an Obsession forced into them with Prime Mastery?

    EDIT: and when i say non-archmage version of Ochemata, i mean, this is the closest awakened magic can get, and it doesn't produce something capable of connecting to the supernal...
    Last edited by orathaic; 01-02-2022, 11:16 PM.

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    • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
      To use the example in the book, Eidolon fire (which does not burn) as a fetish object for a spirit of fire (which may gain essence from the usual fire related things and thus might like being in the platonic ideal of fire - and is not bleeding essence at least if i understand the possession rules).

      It might even influence the Eidolon fire to burn things using influence fire.

      It is the 'may imitate entire environments' part of the Eidolon spell i am thinking of. Ok you've got a fairly solid illusion going on, now can it be enhanced by a little spirit magic?
      An Eidolon that matches the description of one of a spirit's Influences may safely be considered to match the description of one of a spirit's Influences and thus possess the Resonant Condition for that spirit, yes.

      Originally posted by orathaic View Post
      The forge purpose spell doesn't mention anything about needing to have aspirations. In fact it can explicitly force Obsessions onto sleepers (so they gain arcane experience where they normally could not).
      Obsessions grant Beats, grant Mana, penalize rolls from Acts of Hubris, none of which are traits goetia possess, and the effects of Forge Purpose on Sleepers are relevant primarily if they Awaken — which goetia cannot do, lacking souls or the natural capacity to hold one. The only mechanical impact it would have would be in the unlikely event that somebody tried to use Social Maneuvering on an invisible entity defined by what it represents in a way counter to that Obsession, in which case it puts one more Door in the way, and the goetia (as an NPC) gets a point of Willpower for pursuing the Obsession. That's it. You can accomplish that already with less fuss if you have enough Mind to be messing with goetia.

      So to extend the question, can you cast forge purpose on anything with a mind? (Spirits, ghosts, vampires, changelings, a true fae?).
      If it normally tracks Aspirations, sure.

      Your counter point about Ochemata actually makes me think the opposite - shared souls/soul shards share a common pool of arcane experience - allowing Ochemata to cast some spells which require this cost.

      Goetic Summons specifically says [quotation from the spell]
      It immediately clarifies what that means, is the thing, and it doesn't mean anything like that, as Levi explains.

      Originally posted by orathaic View Post
      Reading the Golden spell's conjugational options and
      Ok fine for mind 5 making or death/spirit 4 binding. But it does not suggest allowing the use of goetia as a controlling mind in a Golem at all (and by extension in an Eidolon).

      Is that an overly strict interpretation?
      Yes.

      And is there a reason Mind 5 is required for both Golem/Eidolon while Spirit/Death 4 is only mentioned for Golems? ( I note mind 5 is the only conjunctional for Create Life to give an animal its own mind - though that doesn't prevent you from binding a spirit/ghost/goetia into an animal).
      The criteria for summoning any sort of goetia are dramatically more stringent than the criteria for summoning any sort of ghost or spirit, whereas with Mind 5 you can just construct a mind without having to pull it out of the Astral and deal with the necessities and consequences of doing so.

      The open development for Signs of Sorcery highlighted the fact that there wasn't space in the corebook to put especially complex spells and applications of conjunctive Arcana.

      Originally posted by orathaic View Post
      Still, doesn't have an awakened soul, so can't do what an Ochemata can do. Can it learn like a Psychic Genesis created mind presumably can (and thus gain beats)?
      If you want to play a separate character from your mage, you are probably better off doing that instead of trying to bootstrap the system into letting you outsource your Experience gain to an offscreen character.


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      • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
        Ok, some questions about the Eidolon spell (Prime 5 Making). It allows conjunctional Mind 5 (Making) to give it a mind of its own. 1) Would it also be reasonable to allow Goetic summons (Mind 3 Perfecting) to summon a part of one's own soul (possibly your virtue?) and have the Goetic Demon possess the mindless Eidolon (either conjunctionally or as a seperate spell).

        Assuming this is possible, 2) could you also use Forge Purpose (Prime 5 Making) to give the Eidolon/Goetic Demon one of your Obsessions? And essentially leave it to its own devices... (Maybe with some instruction...)

        And 3) what happens when your Goetic Demon returns to the Astral (again assuming you summoned it from your own Oneiros, not somewhere else). Would you be able to integrate its experience and gain any Arcane Experience it might have acquired while embodied.

        Similarly, 4) could you bind a ghost or spirit to an Eidolon (which is essentially an object, so might fit the requirements for making a fetish).

        For a ghost 5) could you make it look like the ghost's original body?

        For a spirit 6) could the Eidolon be a platonic ideal of whatever the spirit is resonant with?
        I need to backtrack this entire conversation and ask-

        Asides from being what I probably expect is an idea for an offscreen EXP generator, a concept an in-universe character will never think of, what's the endgame of this questions? What's the intention of this spell combination, what would a mage asking these questions really be trying to do?

        If it is an EXP generator thing, the outcome is that the GM probably twists player hubris against them in some for or fashion and makes it turn out terrible, or probably pulls the player asides and kindly asks them to stop trying to game the game if they'd like to keep playing.


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        • Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
          I need to backtrack this entire conversation and ask-

          Asides from being what I probably expect is an idea for an offscreen EXP generator, a concept an in-universe character will never think of, what's the endgame of this questions? What's the intention of this spell combination, what would a mage asking these questions really be trying to do?

          If it is an EXP generator thing, the outcome is that the GM probably twists player hubris against them in some for or fashion and makes it turn out terrible, or probably pulls the player asides and kindly asks them to stop trying to game the game if they'd like to keep playing.
          Most likely the players come across an unusual Eidolon which is trying to do something (possibly researching a mystery in a Sanctum or ancient ruins) - the mage who created it having died without reintegrating... And it being rather difficult to understand exactly what they are dealing with or how to negotiate with it.

          I think it would be hard to generate a useful amount of XP with it as a PC. Leaving it in your sanctum to do research while your character goes out to focus on other things seems less useful - as an aside can you use two thoughts, one mind to be in your own body and use possession on another target (possibly an Eidolon) at the same time, to largely do the same thing?

          The point is Eidolon seems rather underwhelming, (fate gets destinies, death/spirit/mind get ephemeral beings, Prime gets ? Truth?) And how do you make this 'Retainer' into something more interesting - and mage do acts of hibrid which may leave interesting mysteries behind for players (to possibly copy, giving them enough rope to hang...).

          In character, it is not "oh i need an offscreen XP generator" it is "i have to do this frakking Consilium meeting/task, when i'd rather not be drawn away from my Obsession, i know I'll leave part of me behind..."

          EDIT: Also the point of using a Goetia instead of a Psychic Genesis is that Making is hard (not everyone has mastery) and using something which already exists but Weaving or Ruling it is almost always an easier option than pure Making.
          Last edited by orathaic; 01-03-2022, 05:18 AM.

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          • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
            The point is Eidolon seems rather underwhelming, (fate gets destinies, death/spirit/mind get ephemeral beings, Prime gets ? Truth?)
            Eidolon’s are not Truth made manifest, that would be Mana (I think)… which you can just make with Prime making. And I don’t mean as a Hallow. It wouldn’t be lasting but I think the potential is clear. If you want destiny type stuff, you can give stuff a self sustaining Nimbus and have the same events play out again and again in the same place. Arguably you can even plant the initial seed for a Long Term Nimbus to form and grow.
            Originally posted by orathaic View Post
            And how do you make this 'Retainer' into something more interesting - and mage do acts of hibrid which may leave interesting mysteries behind for players (to possibly copy, giving them enough rope to hang...).
            Make it completely independent from its creator, as a fusion of their mind and the mind of a rank 5 summoned Supernal being. Have it act as a autonomous store house of occult knowledge with a compulsion to seek out new mysteries to gain more knowledge, and give it the ability through imbuement to cast certain spells like the ability to transfer Mana and use Mage Sight. Heck, make it a Hallow, and veil it so other Mages don’t interfere. If you really need a purpose for this thing, Ivy from the Dresden files is kinda in the same mental space, and acts as bastion for all written knowledge. The Mysterium probably has invested in the creation of such things regularly (kept safe and away from those unworthy to know the secrets the construct holds). If you want this this to be found in some ruin somewhere, have the construct refer to itself as its creator’s child, and state it’s purpose is to preserve it’s creators legacy as more than dusty rotes and faint echos in soul stones. If you really want a weird Mystery, have it have it’s creator’s Legacy, and be able to use it.
            (As a side note, is it just me or wouldn’t this be a fun character to play as in a deviant or promethean game? I’d totally play a Eidolon Ivy.)


            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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            • Eidolon’s are not Truth made manifest, that would be Mana (I think)…
              Not that this has to be Truth, just that truth is something Prime gets...

              And in a sense, a platonic form is the ideal (or True) version of the idea (made manifest from mana) - at least if you are familiar with Plato or where the spell gets its name (and an Eidolon does seem to be an advanced Platonic Form).

              Alternatively you can see it as the closest thing to a sentient spell non-Archmages can create (in that it is made of mana so presumably will seem similar enough to a spell to confuse some less well informed mages).

              as a fusion of their mind and the mind of a rank 5 summoned Supernal being
              Eh, what? I'm sorry lacking in info about Supernal beings, other than assuming they are not able to last for very long (outside of their summoning circle?/Demense/Verge?). What are their motivations? And how would you go about fusing their mind with your own (is that what your sentence means, you suggested it being independent of the creator, how is fusing the creator's mind independent?)
              Last edited by orathaic; 01-03-2022, 03:27 PM.

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              • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                Eh, what? I'm sorry lacking in info about Supernal beings, other than assuming they are not able to last for very long (outside of their summoning circle?/Demense/Verge?). What are their motivations? And how would you go about fusing their mind with your own (is that what your sentence means, you suggested it being independent of the creator, how is fusing the creator's mind independent?)
                Supernal beings are Symbols made manifest. They don’t have any one motivation, besides having to Challenge anyone who wants their help, and maybe trying not to fall into the Abyss.

                And no, that’s not exactly what I meant. What I was suggesting as a interesting Eidolon was one that was created with fusion of the Knowledge of a Supernal being and a mind used to the Fallen World as it’s mind. Presumably, the Mage involved will use their own mind, since you know, they are present for the spell. But don’t let it just be a copy of the Mage, let it have its own will and wants. A new person. Like a child is based on it’s parents. They might turn out like their parents, or they could be radically different.

                One could go about doing this by summoning a rank 5 Mind/Prime entity and asking for it.


                To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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                • Is it possible for a mage just turned Archmage to hide his higher power and pass as a non-archmage mage and for a prolonged time (e.g. 3-4 years or so)?
                  (Considering of course that his new obsessions somehow do not hinder this process, instead even enforcing it).

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                  • Originally posted by Khalendas View Post
                    Is it possible for a mage just turned Archmage to hide his higher power and pass as a non-archmage mage and for a prolonged time (e.g. 3-4 years or so)?
                    (Considering of course that his new obsessions somehow do not hinder this process, instead even enforcing it).

                    Yes, with ease. With a Veiling of Prime, they can disguise their Nimbus, its strength and their Gnosis level. Since archmages automatically win Clash of Will with anything not equivalent to them or a Rank 6+ being (found in page 252 of the core book), it makes things very convenient for them. They are after all a post-human Gnostic horror, so since their spells cannot be countered or dispelled, even their use of the basic Practices is more powerful. So if a new archmage, for example, decided to send someone back via Corridors of Time, no one short of another archmage would be able to forcefully send the time traveler back. That might give them away, but who knows.
                    Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-03-2022, 08:40 PM.


                    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                    • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                      Most likely the players come across an unusual Eidolon which is trying to do something (possibly researching a mystery in a Sanctum or ancient ruins) - the mage who created it having died without reintegrating... And it being rather difficult to understand exactly what they are dealing with or how to negotiate with it.
                      That's much more about your idea of using goetia than anything to do with Eidolons in particular This is much easier to manage with Life, for instance.

                      I think it would be hard to generate a useful amount of XP with it as a PC. Leaving it in your sanctum to do research while your character goes out to focus on other things seems less useful - as an aside can you use two thoughts, one mind to be in your own body and use possession on another target (possibly an Eidolon) at the same time, to largely do the same thing?
                      Considering the spell specifies that you're comatose and One Mind Two Thoughts specifies that the actions in question must be Mental or Social, I'd say not.

                      The point is Eidolon seems rather underwhelming, (fate gets destinies, death/spirit/mind get ephemeral beings, Prime gets ? Truth?) And how do you make this 'Retainer' into something more interesting - and mage do acts of hibrid which may leave interesting mysteries behind for players (to possibly copy, giving them enough rope to hang...).
                      Eidolon lets you make tass with no Mana in it and shape it into sets, actors, and special effects, and while being obviously magical is a problem for using magic in public it's incredibly striking as a thing to have floating around a place of power like you can make with the same Arcanum at the same level.

                      In character, it is not "oh i need an offscreen XP generator" it is "i have to do this frakking Consilium meeting/task, when i'd rather not be drawn away from my Obsession, i know I'll leave part of me behind..."
                      Surely the solution there is to send a familiar or use something like Soul Windows or Co-Location to attend via telepresence or trade favors or foist it off on an apprentice instead of going yourself and leaving the interesting work to a manifest Obsession?

                      Or, god forbid, taking the hit to your social capital and being late to or absent from your obligations?

                      EDIT: Also the point of using a Goetia instead of a Psychic Genesis is that Making is hard (not everyone has mastery) and using something which already exists but Weaving or Ruling it is almost always an easier option than pure Making.
                      "Not everyone has mastery" kind of falls flat when you're talking about Eidolons, but also: if you're at the level where you can mess with goetia, you're at the level where you can mess with people and animals. Make a raccoon smart enough to understand what it's looking at and give it a photographic memory. Rewire the neighbor kid to want to poke whatever weird shit you're keeping in your basement. Hell, acquire some cameras and magic the lenses.

                      This whole thing feels like a billion-dollar answer to a thirty-dollar problem. Balancing pursuit of the Mysteries with other activities is the name of the game, and most characters manage it without needing Gnosis 5 and Astral soul-surgery.


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                      Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                      • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


                        Yes, with ease. With a Veiling of Prime, they can disguise their Nimbus, its strength and their Gnosis level. Since archmages automatically win Clash of Will with anything not equivalent to them or a Rank 6+ being (found in page 252 of the core book), it makes things very convenient for them. They are after all a post-human Gnostic horror, so since their spells cannot be countered or dispelled, even their use of the basic Practices is more powerful. So if a new archmage, for example, decided to send someone back via Corridors of Time, no one short of another archmage would be able to forcefully send the time traveler back. That might give them away, but who knows.


                        Thanks, thought something like that ^^

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                        • I'll admit that Prime spells as yet published don't seem to have explored much of the angle of it being an Arcanum that engages with Truth, but for the moment I think the ideas of what each Path sees with it in Mage Sight can give some ideas. I've that stands out to me in particular is the Acanthus, and how Prime lets them see the driving purpose and motive of a narrative. I think if that's a thing that can be seen, then it should be valid as a basis for spell effects.

                          As for being able to conjure up a Retainer that can be physical and probably easily disguised for most Masters of Prime, I think it's worth considering the full range of tasks a powerful mage might want covered seperately from themselves, and how an Eidolen might have more flexible circumstances to be applied than similar options like a zombie or animated statue. Even for the more simple undertakings that don't require additional Arcana or ephemeral entities.

                          And if not for oneself, then for somebody else. Masters aren't just advantaged in their own needs, but in what they can provide to incentivise other mages to assist them. Somebody with more prosaic needs might benefit from the Retainer you've conjured from nothing, and then they can act to use their capabilities to cover angles you cannot, or operate in a time and place you currently can't.

                          I think such arrangements tend to be how mage hierarchies work in general. In particular, I think the idea that mundane Consilium business being a distraction from high level study of the Mysteries is mostly why the office of Provost exists, although I'd say that generally amounts to them engaging with most of the mundane administrative stuff, saving the Councillors for when important decisions need to be made.

                          Although I'd also think that the Obsessions of powerful mages are also the kind of thing that need some larger management anyway. You've got to be conferring with peers and herding the juniors to keep the way clear or implement the large scale projects that answer your questions. Those kinds of projects can also be where you apply your servants of highly variable form conjured from nothing, even when their capabilities are simple. You're a Silver Ladder Obrimos, say, observing the symbols that indicate how the Ladder plays out across a particular society. Numerous Eidolens are called up and strategically placed; their individual tasks are simple, but aimed and coordinated to cause a sequence of events that shakes the society up a bit so you can observe how the Ladder of being and the Lesser Elemental Precepts hold up.


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                          • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            I'll admit that Prime spells as yet published don't seem to have explored much of the angle of it being an Arcanum that engages with Truth, but for the moment I think the ideas of what each Path sees with it in Mage Sight can give some ideas. I've that stands out to me in particular is the Acanthus, and how Prime lets them see the driving purpose and motive of a narrative. I think if that's a thing that can be seen, then it should be valid as a basis for spell effects.

                            As for being able to conjure up a Retainer that can be physical and probably easily disguised for most Masters of Prime, I think it's worth considering the full range of tasks a powerful mage might want covered seperately from themselves, and how an Eidolen might have more flexible circumstances to be applied than similar options like a zombie or animated statue. Even for the more simple undertakings that don't require additional Arcana or ephemeral entities.

                            And if not for oneself, then for somebody else. Masters aren't just advantaged in their own needs, but in what they can provide to incentivise other mages to assist them. Somebody with more prosaic needs might benefit from the Retainer you've conjured from nothing, and then they can act to use their capabilities to cover angles you cannot, or operate in a time and place you currently can't.

                            I think such arrangements tend to be how mage hierarchies work in general. In particular, I think the idea that mundane Consilium business being a distraction from high level study of the Mysteries is mostly why the office of Provost exists, although I'd say that generally amounts to them engaging with most of the mundane administrative stuff, saving the Councillors for when important decisions need to be made.

                            Although I'd also think that the Obsessions of powerful mages are also the kind of thing that need some larger management anyway. You've got to be conferring with peers and herding the juniors to keep the way clear or implement the large scale projects that answer your questions. Those kinds of projects can also be where you apply your servants of highly variable form conjured from nothing, even when their capabilities are simple. You're a Silver Ladder Obrimos, say, observing the symbols that indicate how the Ladder plays out across a particular society. Numerous Eidolens are called up and strategically placed; their individual tasks are simple, but aimed and coordinated to cause a sequence of events that shakes the society up a bit so you can observe how the Ladder of being and the Lesser Elemental Precepts hold up.
                            I think you meant Fate for the Acanthus example.

                            Regarding Prime's purviews of Truth, one thing I theorize is that it would be very effective against anything of the Abyss. Either by making spells that are very effective against its manifestations or that create defenses that allow for a bit more safety when confronting it.

                            I think its connection to the soul, as a subtle Arcanum that comprises it, could also be expanded upon. In a simplied overview, Fate has intent and choice, Death has endings and how the soul is attached, Mind has thought and consciousness, Spirit has emotions and instincts. But what role Prime plays in it all is still nebulous at the moment.

                            I also believe its purview of revelation would be very interesting to explore. Combined with Fate, for example, would allow a mage to not only know a subject's current intended goals (Aspirations and Obsessions), but also reveal the ones they are working towards without being fully aware, such as the ones they are being manipulated towards (although not by whom) or what is the goal of a Fate/Doom that lies upon them. With Space, it would reveal what goals the subject had when creating those bonds and so on.
                            Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-04-2022, 02:54 PM.


                            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                            • Eidolon lets you make tass with no Mana in it
                              I'm pretty sure the spell description explicitly says this is Mana, all mana all the time?

                              Surely the solution there is to...
                              Yes, zombies or living things or Golem, or indeed familiars, are all things mages with other Arcana can do.

                              I'm explicitly asking what can a Prime mage do. Obviously the summon goetia (3 dot spell) added some mind, and could be bound into anything else. But my question boils do to, what makes Prime Mastery interesting (specifically focused on Eidlons, but broader answers are interesting).

                              The 'obviously magic' line seems to be (as distinct from zombies/golems/life forms) to require that it create dissonance.

                              The 'environment' aspect seems interesting, like some true fae powers to create environments, but i can't seem much use for it. Maybe a staff with eternal Eidolon flame (resonant to a fire spirit) would help, especially if you wanted a fire spirit as a familiar.

                              Though honestly, i see making fetishes/spirit familiars as a fun way to do magic without paradox, and 2nd ed - with 1 dice of paradox (for sleeper witness) and 1 mana cost to mitigate it - seems to make overcoming paradox directly much easier.

                              EDIT: actually it is the forge purpose spell which is unique to prime mastery... Maybe somehow related to truth, and i dunno, if you have to cast it on already sentient beings (which i presume is a wisdom sin) it seems much less fun.
                              Last edited by orathaic; 01-04-2022, 05:54 PM.

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                              • Aside : mental magic
                                Considering the spell specifies that you're comatose and One Mind Two Thoughts specifies that the actions in question must be Mental or Social, I'd say not
                                Then it might have to be creative thaumatergy'd in at a higher level. Though i will note One Mind, Two Thoughts says 'neither task can be solely physical' - suggesting you can do physical things as part of the task, but in 1st Ed i seem to recall your body was only able to do one thing, so you could allow one entirely physical task while the other mind did something else.

                                Getting an effective way to be in two places at once (for a Master of Mind) seems like a great way to mirror the gross/subtle Arcana of the Mastigos, without breaking the game (as they should already be able to pull off similar feats with Space).

                                But using possession/psychic projection, while physically able to control your own body would be a little powerful (psychic projection with a Goetic familar possessing your body would work though).

                                EDIT: i note +2 reach for two thoughts does allow a physical action, but, oh wait it is clear that this is "Physical" in that it uses physical traits, but it is still Astral, not controlling your body while in the Astral.
                                Last edited by orathaic; 01-04-2022, 06:05 PM.

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