Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Isator Levi]

I think you meant Fate for the Acanthus example.

I did not.

Arcadian logic is based on free will. Fate and Time are the engines that drive reality, and they follow the decisions of the characters, not the plot of the story. Prime, then, is the imposition of the authorial voice, setting events in motion and fueling the engines. A story where nothing changes is a dull story, and Acanthus see Prime in every breeze through the Mists, in every shoot of moonsilver thorn that sprouts off in an unexpected direction. Prime dictates the terms of the story as surely as Fate dictates the events; it reveals the truths that drive the tale forward, clears away the obstacles put in place by enemy mages, and provides the blessed artifact that brings the story to its climax

The Thorns show you where things came from and the varied options for where they're going. The Mists show you which things hold significance, the gravity that draw and bend events. It reads to me that Prime can let you observe these phenomena in terms of why they have that direction and importance, of how things begin and what gives them momentum.

[orathaic]

Ok, actual some question here:

When would you use a sympathic yantra to gain +2 bonus (ie when not casting at sympathic range)?

Would it be that any spell you cast in yourself you can use a lock of your hair (and possibly destroy it aswell for a +1 as a sacrament) - assuming you have no other better yantra options?

It seems odd that the sympathic option works at all when you are in touch range, you have the body itself to apply as the 'who' the spell is targeting, why would you need a material sympathy?

[Satchel]

I'm pretty sure the spell description explicitly says this is Mana, all mana all the time?

It is an explicit point of difference from Platonic Form that Eidolons do not crumble when they run out of Mana.

The 'obviously magic' line seems to be (as distinct from zombies/golems/life forms) to require that it create dissonance.

Which doesn't matter in any circumstance where Sleepers aren't present, as they shouldn't be in places like sancta, Hallows, or demesnes.

The 'environment' aspect seems interesting, like some true fae powers to create environments, but i can't seem much use for it. Maybe a staff with eternal Eidolon flame (resonant to a fire spirit) would help, especially if you wanted a fire spirit as a familiar.

I did not compare the spell's potential outputs to theatrical elements idly — an Eidolon can be manifested as a structure with physical presence and doesn't need extra Reach to produce complex systems. Its inability to make fire that burns or electricity that can power technology still leaves it with the capacity for harm through pure mechanical force.

Though honestly, i see making fetishes/spirit familiars as a fun way to do magic without paradox, and 2nd ed - with 1 dice of paradox (for sleeper witness) and 1 mana cost to mitigate it - seems to make overcoming paradox directly much easier.

The tradeoff, of course, being Dissonance and the allocation of Reach; instant-casting a spell at the limits of your skill with the Arcana means you're dipping into the unsafe Reach for any Advanced factors or side benefits, and no amount of Mana will make a crowd of Sleepers fail to vibrate an obvious long-term spell apart after a moderate exposure.

There's also the fact that doing so is an Act of Hubris for anyone above Falling Wisdom. You can mitigate that for Inured spells, but… well, at that point it's stopped being just 1 Mana to mitigate, and there's a pretty strict limit on how many spells you can do this with.

Ok, actual some question here:

When would you use a sympathic yantra to gain +2 bonus (ie when not casting at sympathic range)?

Would it be that any spell you cast in yourself you can use a lock of your hair (and possibly destroy it aswell for a +1 as a sacrament) - assuming you have no other better yantra options?

It seems odd that the sympathic option works at all when you are in touch range, you have the body itself to apply as the 'who' the spell is targeting, why would you need a material sympathy?

If this is a question of why you would use the bonus from a sympathetic Yantra instead of for Sympathetic Range, the answers are:

• As long as you haven't destroyed it, you can use it for both the Sympathetic Range Attainment and the dice bonus; the cost is that this requires you to use it as a Yantra twice, just as you would for any other tool that counts as more than one type of Yantra.

• Even if you're not using the Attainment, there is an entire middle ground between Touch Range and Sympathetic Range, and the cost of remote casting is different from the cost of the Attainment.

• Even at Touch Range, material sympathy functions as a mnemonic for strengthening the spell's Imago just like any other Yantra does.

[orathaic]

• As long as you haven't destroyed it, you can use it for both the Sympathetic Range Attainment and the dice bonus;

That is very much not something you can do by the RAW.

"In order to use a Yantra, a willworker has to recognize a specific symbolism in the tool....The more Yantras she uses — whether different interpretations of the same tool or different tools altogether — the more basis she has for her Imago, making it easier to form."

It is one interpretation of the sympathic meaning of the item, which can't be used twice in a given spell. If the spell is at sympathetic range using a sympathic yantra gives 0 dice bonus (and takes up one of your yantra slots?) Because in both cases it is being interpreted as symbolising the "who" the spell is targeting.

Just like you can't use the same path tool twice for the same meaning.

Even at Touch Range, material sympathy functions as a mnemonic for strengthening the spell's Imago just like any other Yantra does.

In my interpretation, if you are at touch range, it seems you can touch the actual subject and use their own body (or your own body) as a sympathic yantra to itself - for the easiest +2 i can think of.

At least it makes very little metaphysical sense to me that a piece of the target can work as a yantra but their entire body can't - like why am i focusing on this lock of hair that i just cut when i could be focusing on the actual target i am also touching.

So in my understanding, it would be really weird to use any sympathic yantra for touch range (as opposed to getting a free +2 yantras for touching them) and you can't get a bonus for using the attainment(s).

At sensory/remote viewing ranges it makes more sense. But even then. Remote viewing 'live' is a stronger connection than a 'recent recording' - should you should still get an automatic +2 for using it as a sympathic yantra.

Unless you think the player should be forced to make a hard copy recording of the remotely viewed item and then use it in the spell to get the yantra bonus (and cut a lock of their hair off before casting a touch range healing spell).

I would end up either going with +2 for every spell that uses the target as a sympathic link to itself or not allowing any dice bonus for sympathic yantras (and only needing sympathic yantras with the attainments).

The question being is an automatic +2 yantra too good (as it doesn't appear to be what the rules as written suggest), but comparing with the downsides of (say) Runes or Concentration, this seems too easy. It is equivalent to getting a +2 from being in a Demense - which is much harder to acquire and limited in what spells it can be cast with...

I think my interpretation is too good for what is intended. But still, bring a polaroid camera and (mid-combat) take a photo of the and target and you get a +2 (material sympathy) to target them... And your players should be asking 'why does focusing on this photo of the target provide a better bonus than focusing on the actual target?'

Using the targets blood as a sympathic attaintment and a +2 sacrement seems much more thematic and in-line with the difficult of acquiring other +2 yantra bonuses.

[orathaic]

It is an explicit point of difference from Platonic Form that Eidolons do not crumble when they run out of Mana.

I see, it does say that, it also says "Eidolons are still made of solidified Mana" - it doesn't crumble when it has run out of usable mana, but it is still made of mana.

So you can make an Eidolon sword with X potency damage bonus and Y mana uses, and once it runs out of mana it become a 0 damage bonus? Improvised weapon? (Unless you spend your own mana to make it work - though that doesn't seem to be allowed for imbued items or fetishes, at least without word of command)

That might actually be cool, though still somewhat underwhelming. A Retained with a magic sword protecting your sanctum.

Actually on that, if you put 5 potency in retainer Merit with a field which include 'combat', then the Eidolon gets 10 dice pool for combat. But what does 10 dice for combat actually mean? 1 attack at 0 initiative bonus with a 10 dice pool and 0 defence (is that good?)it seems to be identical to a Golem, but strictly worse than a Zombie retained? (And less numerous, though you have to get actual bodies/statues for those other spells, and Eidolons just require mana...)

EDIT: Also, can you use the Platonic Form reach to give your Eidolon tool 8-again (which i presume works for combat, but the wording on tools ba weapons in the spell seems confusing.)

[21C Hermit]

That is very much not something you can do by the RAW.

"In order to use a Yantra, a willworker has to recognize a specific symbolism in the tool....The more Yantras she uses — whether different interpretations of the same tool or different tools altogether — the more basis she has for her Imago, making it easier to form."

It is one interpretation of the sympathic meaning of the item, which can't be used twice in a given spell. If the spell is at sympathetic range using a sympathic yantra gives 0 dice bonus (and takes up one of your yantra slots?) Because in both cases it is being interpreted as symbolising the "who" the spell is targeting.

Just like you can't use the same path tool twice for the same meaning.

Haven’t fully read the discussion, but… I’m pretty sure Sympathy Yantras by default represent similarity, not proximity. I don’t have the book with me ATM, but I’m pretty sure the Yantras section writes it as Sympathy Yantras and not Sympathetic Yantras, exactly because of this. Thus, two meanings and two Yantras can coexist on one object.

EDIT: Wait a sec, just ignore me for a bit — I need to look up stuff again

[Tessie]

And your players should be asking 'why does focusing on this photo of the target provide a better bonus than focusing on the actual target?'

The thing is, you always have to focus on the target (except for Sympathetic Casting). The "bonus" you get for that is that you're able to cast a spell on them in the first place.
Touching the target directly also grants you a "bonus": The spell uses one less Reach than if you had cast at Sensory Range. As such, casting on yourself is already advantageous compared to casting on others.

As for the +2 bonus; in my experience that's not unbalanced at all. If you prepare for a spell, you'll almost always be able to fill all your Yantra slots with Yantras that grant +2 or more dice anyway. If you're casting during stressed situations, the time pressure will limit the amount of Yantras used, so that you generally have multiple Yantras to choose between for your reflexive Yantra usage (and Mantra for almost all situations where you have time for a second Yantra unless you're packing both Mudra and Persona for this particular spell).
And taking a photo of your opponent (or ally) mid combat means you've spent a turn preparing a Yantra while your enemies may spend that turn attacking or casting spells. If you have another reflexive Yantra to use (such as Persona, Concentration, Mudra, or any of the +1 Yantras), then you also need to spend a second turn using it as a Yantra for whatever spell you're about to cast. It will rarely, if ever, be worth it. And if it's during a niche situation actually worth it, then don't punish that player's ingenuity by removing their bonus.

[Isator Levi]

And your players should be asking 'why does focusing on this photo of the target provide a better bonus than focusing on the actual target?'

Well, some of the metaphysics are concerned with the idea that representations of things are equivalent to them.

I would say it can just be a matter of how even if you're providing the immediate sensory conception of your target's current state by touching them, the slot in the Imago that conceives of what your target is remains easier to form if focused on a smaller symbolic stand in. A photograph shrinks them down to an easier mental image of what the spell is going to target, whereas the actual subject has to be taken in with all its complexities; it relieves no mental space in forming the Imago.

It would be like asking why you would use a lever to move something when you have perfectly good arms.

[orathaic]

Well, some of the metaphysics are concerned with the idea that representations of things are equivalent to them.

I would say it can just be a matter of how even if you're providing the immediate sensory conception of your target's current state by touching them, the slot in the Imago that conceives of what your target is remains easier to form if focused on a smaller symbolic stand in. A photograph shrinks them down to an easier mental image of what the spell is going to target, whereas the actual subject has to be taken in with all its complexities; it relieves no mental space in forming the Imago.

It would be like asking why you would use a lever to move something when you have perfectly good arms.

Thanks for that description. I can kinda see it like a photo is a fixed representation, rather than the active moving (living breathing) target, so it is easier to focus on.

---

Aside, it seems that touching gives a connected sympathetic connection ("Two subjects may become
sympathetically linked when they share a strong emotional, physical, or mystical connection." And "The two subjects are metaphysically one.")

But it is even better than connected because touch range is one reach less than sensory, you don't need to spend a mana to activate the attainment and don't lose one potency if you don't know the target's sympathic name (ie withstand for sympathic range).

Not really a question there. I can't think of any times when it would be relevant...

[orathaic]

Quick one on Hung Spell, i think it just clicked in my head - so this is neither conjunctional nor combined.

"The subject must be a mage" - so it just gives the mage the ability to trap other imagos while hung spell still has duration.

In combat if you had (say) covering fire your cabal's apprentice of time could cast Hung spell on multiple targets at potency 3 (say) and then the entire cabal could spend 3 rounds of combat casting different spells before releasing them all in a sudden 'NOPE'.

Or you could precast healing on connected targets (your cabal mates) and then end the hung spell to dish out a sudden boost to your side (even though you're not touching anymore...) - limited by the fact that all of the hung spells go off at once, so you can't only heal one injured person, it is all or nothing.

Is that right? And can you combine multiple hung spell casting (with one potency each) to reduce spell control needs of the time apprentice? Or combine the hung spell and spell you trap in it (if casting on yourself)?

[TempleBuilder]

I see, it does say that, it also says "Eidolons are still made of solidified Mana" - it doesn't crumble when it has run out of usable mana, but it is still made of mana.

So you can make an Eidolon sword with X potency damage bonus and Y mana uses, and once it runs out of mana it become a 0 damage bonus? Improvised weapon? (Unless you spend your own mana to make it work - though that doesn't seem to be allowed for imbued items or fetishes, at least without word of command)

No, it drops to whatever damage the sword would normally have if it was a normal sword. It’s still a sword. Just not Mana empowered at that moment.

That might actually be cool, though still somewhat underwhelming. A Retained with a magic sword protecting your sanctum.

A retainer who doesn’t need to eat or sleep, is absolutely loyal, who you effectively have Matter/Life 5 for, and is equivalent to one of the best mortals in their field. That field includes running, jumping, and people punching. And aiming, and firing a gun. (Depending on how you interpret “combat”)

Actually on that, if you put 5 potency in retainer Merit with a field which include 'combat', then the Eidolon gets 10 dice pool for combat. But what does 10 dice for combat actually mean? 1 attack at 0 initiative bonus with a 10 dice pool and 0 defence (is that good?)it seems to be identical to a Golem, but strictly worse than a Zombie retained? (And less numerous, though you have to get actual bodies/statues for those other spells, and Eidolons just require mana...)

EDIT: Also, can you use the Platonic Form reach to give your Eidolon tool 8-again (which i presume works for combat, but the wording on tools ba weapons in the spell seems confusing.)

Remember that the Primary factor is Potency, so it easily gets retainer 5 unless you put all of the potency elsewhere. 10 dice means on average you get 3 successes. This also happens to be nearly the maximum possible base dice pool for Sleeper characters. (Max is 12 with a specialty and a merit, and only applies when using that specialty. Otherwise 10 is the max base dice pool for Sleepers.) I believe the Eidolon would have initiative equal to 10 or 5, it just wouldn’t do anything until it was told to. Most characters only get one attack, so that’s not particularly different from anyone else to matter. The 0 defense isn’t good, but that represents the Eidolon not knowing to defend itself. Defense is normally only relevant to melee attacks. This means you have to rely on Durability and Structure as your primary defense. This can be high, if you put the potency into it. As for strictly worse than zombies, well that’s a matter of perspective. Zombies are gross, and unsanitary. They also aren’t exactly subtle either, especially after a few days, meaning you have to go through extra steps to hide what they are if you intend to go out in public with them. Corpses tend be rarer too, excepting certain circumstances. Golems are generally tougher than Zombies and Eidolons (depending on what they are made of), but way worse in subtlety as more durable materials tend to be heavier, and while someone might mistake a zombie for a living, if very ill, person if they don’t look closely and stay at a distance, very few people are made of concrete. Golems can totally hide as statue though. While Matter in general is easy to come by, the best materials will take some time to acquire. Eidolon is pretty similar to Golem, as you noted, but is more fragile on average. However, Eidolon is best for for convenience and subtly as it can make anything that looks realistic enough for nobody to notice anything odd (with the Forces add on anyways.) Mana is cheap to a Master of Prime, as you can literally make more.

All of that is just the base Eidolon though. The real power is having something you can buff. If you just use the rest of Prime, you can: Imbue the Eidolon with any spell you like, have it generate more Mana everyday, be able to see and interact with all forms of Twilight entities, have a higher dice pool by manipulating your nimbus on it, heal it, just normally increase it’s dice pool, and so on. Arguably, you can even give the Eidolon the rote quality on potency actions for 2 reach and another mana. Or give the weapon rote quality. Other arcanum only increase your options. Heck, with Forces 3, you can totally make a 5 damage weapon plus assigned potency weapon, that is weaved with Regular or Perfected Fire to do even more damage as a side. It may use Mana per use, but with that much damage, you don’t need to swing often. And you can make it produce Mana everyday.

Edit: Grammar, and a weapon is a tool meant to be used to hurt someone. 8-again definitely applies.

[Isator Levi]

In combat if you had (say) covering fire your cabal's apprentice of time could cast Hung spell on multiple targets at potency 3 (say) and then the entire cabal could spend 3 rounds of combat casting different spells before releasing them all in a sudden 'NOPE'.

Well if these spells are being cast with only their reflexive Yantras, it may be their effects are weak. It's also a bit costly in Mana. It's a thing you could do, but I don't really see the advantage.

Or you could precast healing on connected targets (your cabal mates) and then end the hung spell to dish out a sudden boost to your side (even though you're not touching anymore...)

Without being told how range works with Hung Spell, I'm inclined to think it leans towards requiring the appropriate range at the time the actual effect goes off; you can cast at Touch range in the absence of the target, but need contact or to throw the spell at the moment the suspension is ended.

limited by the fact that all of the hung spells go off at once, so you can't only heal one injured person, it is all or nothing.

I think so. Awakened healing magic is fairly powerful, once you get the dots to acquire it; for Reach, a Disciple of Life can restore 3 Lethal by default, while the Adept can fix 8 (or 4 Aggravated; it costs Reach and Mana, but most get basically no acceleration on aggravated damage at all). I think it doesn't generally need to be Hung; maybe if one is worried about an overwhelming surprise attack.

I'll think about the others.

[orathaic]

Well if these spells are being cast with only their reflexive Yantras, it may be their effects are weak. It's also a bit costly in Mana. It's a thing you could do, but I don't really see the advantage.

Cool, my question was really about do i understand how the spell works, so glad to hear my understanding isn't completely off, and yeah the disadvantages are just that, if there is a tactical advantage to be had from loosing 3 spells at once, that is really down to the specifics of the situation and spells you hung. But the principle stands (more likely to leave a conditional trap on your sanctum... Maybe ban entry and as a second level defence if the ban is broken a hung quanentine of space is cast Unmaking the sanctum's connection to the rest of the world...) I think it is the one 1st Ed thing which didn't become an attainment.

Without being told how range works with Hung Spell, I'm inclined to think it leans towards requiring the appropriate range at the time the actual effect goes off; you can cast at Touch range in the absence of the target, but need contact or to throw the spell at the moment the suspension is ended.

This one is harder - like the conversation about area of effect and what happens to my room full of zombies if they leave the room.

But i think as written, you are hanging a spell not the imago for a spell. And rolling the dice for paradox and everything else (spending the mana and incorporating the hanging of the spell into the imago).

I think allowing targets to be chosen at time of release is more broken. Like say you cast at sensory range on 'the area 5 meters in front of me', and then it hits whatever happens to be in front of you at that time...

I think you have to encode the actual targets/range/spell factors at first. So maybe you're right and the spell fizzles if you're not touching the subject again (without sensory range). I just don't intuit that this is how magic works (it doesn't care where the target is because space is an illusion, unless it has changed dramatically and the temporal sympathy means that target no longer exists - maybe the cabal mate is already dead, so life magic can't heal them?).

But being based on temporal sympathy makes more sense to me given that this is a time effect.

And yes, maybe healing isn't the best use of hung spells, maybe you want a conditional incognito presence with high potency (+target the whole canal) so you can disengage from a fight if things go wrong.

But again, the principle of 'hung spells work like this' is the essence of my question.

[Satchel]

That is very much not something you can do by the RAW.

As others have pointed out, this is founded on the flawed assumption that being able to target a subject is the same interpretation of the Yantra as the one that allows a scaling benefit to your ability to conceptualize a spell. If you don't think a Sympathy Yantra should be usable for its bonus and the Attainment at the same time, you shouldn't be able to use the presence of the target as a Sympathy Yantra for itself, because the target's presence is what is allowing you to cast the spell rather than simply making it easier for you.

Using a Sympathy Yantra for both its bonus and the Attainment takes up two Yantras, one of which specifically doesn't grant any bonus due to allowing an extension of the spell's range at reduced Reach. A Yantra with material sympathy to its intended subject is often something that has a sympathetic connection to the target that you can use Borrow Threads on to further circumvent Sympathetic Withstand, but that in turn puts another spell on your Spell Control load, which increases the chances that you'll overReach even with the shift in cost from Sympathetic Range.

Sympathetic magic is a preparation-intensive process to use effectively, and much of that preparation relies on blurring the line between map and territory. That doesn't really work if you're trying to use the territory in place of a map.

[orathaic]

As others have pointed out, this is founded on the flawed assumption that being able to target a subject is the same interpretation of the Yantra as the one that allows a scaling benefit to your ability to conceptualize a spell.

I dont know exactly what you are getting at, but i can see how one Yantra could have symbolic meaning to multiple things

"Rather than defining the “what” of a spell, sympathetic tools define the “who” — the person, place, creature, or institution upon which the mage forces her will."

Unfortunately the spell will usually only be targeting one of these. Like maybe a work is badge could represent the person (or at least their work persona) and the institution... But you're not targeting both - so again, what 'different interpretations' are there for a tool to allow it he used as a second Yantra.

You either use it to represent the subject to cast using sympathic range, OR to represent the subject 0-2 dice bonus (though you'd always he better off using anything else as a Yantra than the +0 Sympathy, it is only useful for use with an attainment).

It is very clear for these attainments you "must use a sympathetic Yantra"

And four paragraphs earlier where it defines sympathetic Yantra that they represent the "who" aka the subject.

Being able to target is an extra ability granted by the attainment which just happens to require the use of a Yantra slot while giving no bonus.

EDIT: If the rest of your argument was 'sympathetic magic is hard, so giving them a +2 bonus is only fair' - honestly getting a +2 yantra bonus isn't that difficult, just using a high speech Marta... Or some runes or a good sacrement (and a material sympathy is probably a good sacrement for most harmful spells...).

If you don't think a Sympathy Yantra should be usable for its bonus and the Attainment at the same time

you shouldn't be able to use the presence of the target as a Sympathy Yantra for itself, because the target's presence is what is allowing you to cast the spell rather than simply making it easier for you

I'm not saying the presence of the target uses up a Yantra slot, it doesn't, but we both seem to agree that the sympathy attainments do use up a Yantra slot, and since you can't use the same yantra twice you've already used that meaning.

Unless the attainment was only for targeting without taking up the Yantra slot, which would make it closer to sensory range.

Basically the attainments say 'must use a sympathy yantra', sensory range only requires the reach for advanced range.