Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[orathaic]

New Question: can you have multiple Shadow names? (Buying the merit more than once?)

I know Guardians can buy new merit if they have 5 dots in the Masque merit (immersion). But I'm wondering if you can create multiple magical identities for general use (in magical society and for persona yantras).

And while I'm thinking of shadow name, in the chapter on storytelling it mentions

'To bring the Supernal down, through the Nimbus, and change the Fallen World, grounding is necessary. A grounded self, no longer adrift in the mess of the Fallen World, is necessary to do magic.'

And 'It is possible to control a Shadow Name, over time... but the more famous the name, the more gravity attached to its meaning, the harder that feat is.'

This seems to suggest the common collective human concept associated with your shadow name is important, and helps ground your magic in the fallen world.

So presumably going to the astral and doing things to the representation of a mage's shadow name could change the symbology? (Possibly with great difficult, especially for ideas which many humans believe in cf: consensusal reality from Ascension).

[Satchel]

EDIT: If the rest of your argument was 'sympathetic magic is hard, so giving them a +2 bonus is only fair' - honestly getting a +2 yantra bonus isn't that difficult, just using a high speech Marta... Or some runes or a good sacrement (and a material sympathy is probably a good sacrement for most harmful spells...).

My argument is that nothing particularly breaks from allowing a sympathetic Yantra to be used for its bonus and to target the Attainment, given that doing so requires using it as two Yantras — the specific bonus of +2 is irrelevant to the fact that Sympathetic Range already negates one bonus you could use targeting the spell without adding Sympathetic Withstand to the equation.

[Tessie]

As others have pointed out, this is founded on the flawed assumption that being able to target a subject is the same interpretation of the Yantra as the one that allows a scaling benefit to your ability to conceptualize a spell. If you don't think a Sympathy Yantra should be usable for its bonus and the Attainment at the same time, you shouldn't be able to use the presence of the target as a Sympathy Yantra for itself, because the target's presence is what is allowing you to cast the spell rather than simply making it easier for you.

Using a Sympathy Yantra for both its bonus and the Attainment takes up two Yantras, one of which specifically doesn't grant any bonus due to allowing an extension of the spell's range at reduced Reach. A Yantra with material sympathy to its intended subject is often something that has a sympathetic connection to the target that you can use Borrow Threads on to further circumvent Sympathetic Withstand, but that in turn puts another spell on your Spell Control load, which increases the chances that you'll overReach even with the shift in cost from Sympathetic Range.

Sympathetic magic is a preparation-intensive process to use effectively, and much of that preparation relies on blurring the line between map and territory. That doesn't really work if you're trying to use the territory in place of a map.

The book isn't exactly clear about what it means by "different interpretations of the same tool" so I can't say that your interpretation of gaining different bonuses counts as different uses is definitely wrong. However, I think it's much more reasonable to assume that it's the symbolism you draw from that can't be the same for multiple uses as a Yantra. Regardless of whether you use a Sympathy Yantra to gain bonus dice or to use the Sympathetic Range Attainment, the symbolism is the connection between the object and the subject, meaning you'd interpret the same symbolism from the object in both cases. I'm fairly confident that's the intended reading.

[orathaic]

There is nothing stopping you using two seperate yantras (blood and hair, say) in two yantra slots to give +2 each right**?

So you could use a symbolic sympathy* (already a +0) for the attainment and a material sympathy (+2) for another yantra slot (and take the sympathic connection from the stronger one, i presume)

*Maybe require the player to succeed in a craft art roll to make a drawing/caricature.

**EDIT: had another look at this, and there seems to be no reason you can't do this according to RAW. But you could decide to run it that each Yantra needs to provide a different Symbolism, like a sentence eg: I (persona) of the Adamantine Arrows (Order tool) call upon the powers of Stygia (Verge, Demense, environment? path tools) to fray/rule/etc (sacrement/rod/etc) the subject (sympathy). Where you are only allowed to represent each part of the sentence with one Yantra.

With (Runes/Concentration/Mantra) simply being repeating the sentence...

EDIT2: infact i'd imagine this is kind of how you could describe the process of creating a rote.

[KaiserAfini]

New Question: can you have multiple Shadow names? (Buying the merit more than once?)

I know Guardians can buy new merit if they have 5 dots in the Masque merit (immersion). But I'm wondering if you can create multiple magical identities for general use (in magical society and for persona yantras).

And while I'm thinking of shadow name, in the chapter on storytelling it mentions

'To bring the Supernal down, through the Nimbus, and change the Fallen World, grounding is necessary. A grounded self, no longer adrift in the mess of the Fallen World, is necessary to do magic.'

And 'It is possible to control a Shadow Name, over time... but the more famous the name, the more gravity attached to its meaning, the harder that feat is.'

This seems to suggest the common collective human concept associated with your shadow name is important, and helps ground your magic in the fallen world.

So presumably going to the astral and doing things to the representation of a mage's shadow name could change the symbology? (Possibly with great difficult, especially for ideas which many humans believe in cf: consensusal reality from Ascension).

This in itself makes me wonder how mages go about creating completely new Shadow Names. Its possible that building a Shadow Name from scratch is more difficult than using or reinterpreting a well known one, or one of its aspects. Should a mage use the name Ahura Mazda, for example, he would theoretically have access to all the 101 titles that come with it. But it would take considerable skill to manage that and the "supernatural gravity" (Long Term Nimbus) exerted by it could also be challenging to face. Taking on only the title/aspect of "The Undefeated / Undistressed" would allow the mage to have a more focused and predictable, if narrower set of symbolism to handle. Its certainly far easier than trying to wholesale redefine its meaning in the collective unconscious, a herculean task at the best of times.

Building a Shadow Name and its symbolism from scratch allows the mage to more clearly define themselves on their own terms, but probably requires more forethought and work to do.

In regards to obtaining multiple ones, page 92 of Signs of Sorcery states that the Shadow Name informs the Nimbus of the symbols that resonate for the mage alone. A carefully chosen and well understood one should provide all the yantras and occlusion benefits they could need. Given all that, plus the more detailed information on their nature presented in page 292 of the core book, I don't believe purchasing the merit multiple times is possible.

Altering the Shadow Name, however, is very doable. It would probably require a Patterning of Space and Prime, like a lesser and more quick acting version of the Unnaming spell. Another option is to utilize Rewrite History to redefine the Shadow Name or repurpose another merit into it. Lastly, in much the same way that it can overwrite Aspirations and Obsessions, its arguable that Forge Destiny could redefine the symbolism of an existing Shadow Name.

[orathaic]

Its possible that building a Shadow Name from scratch is more difficult than using or reinterpreting a well known one, or one of its aspects.

I would assume the opposite - as there is no momentum to push against, it should be easy to create a new shadow name from scratch - but it would hold less metaphysical weight and thus be valid only for 1 dot of shadow name merit... Whereas it should be easier to research Odin, and build up your persona to match his (possibly requiring a trip to the Astral to talk to Odin?) And thus easier to get a 3 dot shadow name (as you have a map to show you the way...).

EDIT:

a Patterning of Space and Prime, like a lesser and more quick acting version of the Unnaming spell

What spell? All i can find is cut the threads with reach to remove a sympathic name (or the making to give a new sympathic name).

[KaiserAfini]

What spell? All i can find is cut the threads with reach to remove a sympathic name (or the making to give a new sympathic name).

It can be found on page 94 of Signs of Sorcery, which overall is an incredible supplement that expands upon the metaphysics and mechanics, all the while presenting a lot of fascinating spells (the art is amazing as well).

[Isator Levi]

I'd address other points when I have a bit more ease, but I can start with a more direct one:

I would assume the opposite - as there is no momentum to push against, it should be easy to create a new shadow name from scratch - but it would hold less metaphysical weight and thus be valid only for 1 dot of shadow name merit... Whereas it should be easier to research Odin, and build up your persona to match his (possibly requiring a trip to the Astral to talk to Odin?) And thus easier to get a 3 dot shadow name (as you have a map to show you the way...).

I think the first principle with the Shadow Name Merit is that it should not mandate what name you take on from how much of a bonus you want to get.

When I think about Shadow Names and the Merit, I often think of the illustration accompanying the Carnival Melancholy Legacy, that guy's costuming and posture. It makes me think about how the extent of the Merit doesn't really need to be based on the depth of the symbols so much as in how much one commits to the persona while functioning as a mage.

An Astral sojourn seems fairly unnecessary to knowing the motifs and traits you'd need to act according to a name "Odin", the real challenge is more in how much you can immerse yourself in the act, which might well be more a case of not finding your dignity compromised and getting the proper sort of costume. Likewise, that Legacy member just needs to go hard into the right clothes, the right showy attitude, and a name that sounds like a stereotypical quack doctor, and he can readily get the +3 Yantra for spells arising from connotations of being a flamboyant con man.

EDIT: Should also be kept in mind that a Shadow Name doesn't need to be a proper name. If a person names himself Solemn, his persona can be based on elements of being grave and quietly respectful. If he goes by Damascus based on the symbolism of the special and rare kind of steel, then it allows a persona following symbols of a kind of refinement.

[orathaic]

I think the first principle with the Shadow Name Merit is that it should not mandate what name you take on from how much of a bonus you want to get

My thinking was that a newly awakened mage would start with no shadow name.
Then upon being introduced to the concept and adopt some minor trappings purchase 1 dot in the merit, and over time be able to develop their magical identity.

And that i agree it should not matter what name you take, but how you develop that name could depend on the symbols already associated with the name.
for example: Odin having a significant astral presence in the shared humanity bit, it would be easier to develop a persona - because there is a map for it, but harder to change the symbols...

Meanwhile the opposite being the case for some name which holds much less significance.

[orathaic]

Two questions:
Abyssal entities, Gulmoth (spirit) and Acamoth (goetia) - i think Gulmoths enter the fallen world when you paradox enough or through a supernal verge, but if you do a supernal summoning is it still a Gulmoth or is there an Abyssal entity which operates on mana instead of essence (like a supernal being)?

Or are abbysal entities inherent harmed by the supernal (as they are entities of non-existence, and Supernal is Truth, the truth of their existence is they shouldn't...)

--
It seems like imbued items work by creating an imago and embedding it in an item - which can then be cast repeatedly (with flexible subjects but spell factors are only flexible if the mage who created the items has maintained control*) for at least 1 mana - is there amount of mana in the item the limit in the number of 'charges' the imbued item has? Or can the caster (assuming they are a mage) spend their own mana to activate (ie without first channel mana into the item). If the imago is fixed what spell factors do you use? Is the reach set even if it is within the casting mage's spell control.

If released from the mages spell control does this allow the casting of spells without anyone having spell control, and do they suffer from unsafely relinquished spell?

If unrelinquished but the mage creator then dies without spending willpower to relinquish, does it remain (possible as an anchor for a ghost mage) with the imago but always cast spells as if they are unsafely relinquished?


What spell factors do you use it the spell has been relinquished?

I presume no Yantras can be used - the activation roll (Gnosis + spell arcanum) doesn't seem to be a spell casting roll - this would any spell factors would penalised the dice pool significantly, right (and free reach seems like it should be based on the creators arcanum rating, not the user's ie if they embedded an overreaching spell in the first place it will always risk paradox but with user's Gnosis).

Or am I misreading this and it is a spell casting roll, which just happens to use the imbued item's arcanum and Imago to allow the user cast a spell which they wouldn't otherwise be able to cast?

Lastly can it be a rote/praxis?

*I just realised this is a lovely way to have more spell control. Though Prime 4 is expensive, I'm thinking of multiple pocket dimensions created and linked to each other, but only requiring 1 spell control slot; lack of indefinite duration would still suck...

[Isator Levi]

My thinking was that a newly awakened mage would start with no shadow name.
Then upon being introduced to the concept and adopt some minor trappings purchase 1 dot in the merit, and over time be able to develop their magical identity.

I think this is approaching the mechanics a bit too much in terms of existing literally within the setting. While it's likely that the kind of person with a three-dot Shadow Name needs to develop it over time, the dot rating is generally there for the benefit of representing characters who have been Awakened for a while.

for example: Odin having a significant astral presence in the shared humanity bit, it would be easier to develop a persona - because there is a map for it, but harder to change the symbols..

I guess that's technically correct, but I find it an odd way to put it. Things that show up prominently in the Temenos are there because of how prominent they are in a culture, and I think that origin point among people is the thing to focus upon.

And I think mythic imagery as a basis for Shadow Names and other magic goes beyond the kind of cultural significance that places things in the Temenos.

Two questions:
Abyssal entities, Gulmoth (spirit) and Acamoth (goetia) - i think Gulmoths enter the fallen world when you paradox enough or through a supernal verge, but if you do a supernal summoning is it still a Gulmoth or is there an Abyssal entity which operates on mana instead of essence (like a supernal being)?

First off, Abyssal things can be called by powerful Anomaly Paradoxes or enter through Abyssal Verges, but can also come through under their own circumstances, and might well do so more often than those other options. Intruders: Encounters with the Abyss talks about how things can slip in.

For botched Supernal Summoning, I'd say you just get a straightforward Abyssal being (to the extent that they're ever straightforwards).

It seems like imbued items work by creating an imago and embedding it in an item - which can then be cast repeatedly (with flexible subjects but spell factors are only flexible if the mage who created the items has maintained control*)

Just to note, Signs of Sorcery depicts mages as still arguing about how exactly imbued magic works.

for at least 1 mana - is there amount of mana in the item the limit in the number of 'charges' the imbued item has? Or can the caster (assuming they are a mage) spend their own mana to activate (ie without first channel mana into the item).

Signs clarifies that an Awakened user can choose to spend their own Mana to activate.

If the imago is fixed what spell factors do you use?

Setting aside the imago question, users can decide on factors when activating. There's no option to use Yantras to get those dice back, although I presume that when casting with Ritual time the option remains to lengthen the casting for bonus dice.

Is the reach set even if it is within the casting mage's spell control.

My interpretation of items is that they aren't concerned with spell control limits. Apart from that, the creator decides on appropriate Reach when the item is made; by default, it only has as much as they assign to provide advanced factors or empowered effects, even if that places it high enough to risk Paradox. They can choose to allow for flexible Reach in exchange for making imbuing require more successes, but that only lets the user switch off some Reach benefits rather than adding them, and it doesn't reduce Paradox risks.

Since I think of items as not having spell control limits, I think relinquising the spells they cast is irrelevant.

this would any spell factors would penalised the dice pool significantly, right

Pretty much.

My take on imbued items is that they provide the benefit of allowing mages who couldn't otherwise cast a spell do so, as well as letting the item cast its small number of spells frequently, at the cost of being much less flexible in terms of how much you can Reach with them or improve their factors. This would tend to mean that an item ends up requiring more surgical use.

It also helps to distinguish them a bit from Artifacts; having their own Gnosis rating, it can be possible for them to have dice pools greater than what the user would get from their own Gnosis, carrying the potential to further improve factors.

Lastly can it be a rote/praxis?

I think not.

[TempleBuilder]

I’m going to to make a bold assumption and guess that you do not have Signs of Sorcery. The majority of your questions are answered on pg 67 which is titled: Imbued Items: Rules Clarification. SoS is very nice if you like magic items of all kinds, including my previous posts mention of Perfected Materials. You should acquire it if you can.

It seems like imbued items work by creating an imago and embedding it in an item

Pretty much. I come from a d&d background so I like to think of it as adding a “of” to the item’s pattern. Like eyeliner of true sight. Or the classic wand of fireballs. Oh and the definition of item can be stretched with the proper arcanum, you can imbue people with Life and Prime for example. Or Spaces with Space and Prime.

- which can then be cast repeatedly (with flexible subjects but spell factors are only flexible if the mage who created the items has maintained control*) for at least 1 mana

Mostly correct, but you can double the require success to make the reach flexible for everyone, including after relinquishing it. In the circumstance where you didn’t do that, only

- is there amount of mana in the item the limit in the number of 'charges' the imbued item has?

Yes, it defaults to having capacity of one mana. You can increase this with 2 successes per extra mana capacity.

Or can the caster (assuming they are a mage) spend their own mana to activate (ie without first channel mana into the item).

Yes. It’s a choice to do so when casting. I’m sure you can alter the process with a Prime spell to exclude this option if you want.

If the imago is fixed what spell factors do you use?

Who says it’s fixed? The next page (pg 68) goes into in theories on how the process of imbuing something works. Apparently even Mages don’t all agree. The spell factors are whatever you want when casting. Since the spell casting pool changes from user to user, it doesn’t make sense for the spell factors to be fixed.

Is the reach set even if it is within the casting mage's spell control.

The reach is set to anyone else using it, unless it’s creator made it to have flexible reach.

If released from the mages spell control does this allow the casting of spells without anyone having spell control,

Yes.

and do they suffer from unsafely relinquished spell?

I guess that depends on how the Mage relinquishes the imbued item.

If unrelinquished but the mage creator then dies without spending willpower to relinquish, does it remain (possible as an anchor for a ghost mage) with the imago but always cast spells as if they are unsafely relinquished?

Umm…sure? It automatically unsafely relinquishes upon death anyways.

What spell factors do you use it the spell has been relinquished?

Whatever ones you want when you cast, as above.

I presume no Yantras can be used

Correct by default, but that can probably be fixed with some Prime if you want.

- the activation roll (Gnosis + spell arcanum) doesn't seem to be a spell casting roll

Incorrect. It absolutely is.

- this would any spell factors would penalised the dice pool significantly, right

What? I’m sorry, I’m am afraid I don’t understand this part.

(and free reach seems like it should be based on the creators arcanum rating, not the user's ie if they embedded an overreaching spell in the first place it will always risk paradox but with user's Gnosis).

Completely correct.

Or am I misreading this and it is a spell casting roll, which just happens to use the imbued item's arcanum and Imago to allow the user cast a spell which they wouldn't otherwise be able to cast?

This is correct.

Lastly can it be a rote/praxis?

No. A Rote uses a special type of Yantra and Praxis rely on a special and unique understanding of the spell. Use Prime for 8-9 again/ rote quality if you want it.

*I just realised this is a lovely way to have more spell control. Though Prime 4 is expensive, I'm thinking of multiple pocket dimensions created and linked to each other, but only requiring 1 spell control slot; lack of indefinite duration would still suck...

This is the secondary use of Imbued Items, yeah. Expense is subjective, but I will say that Prime both pays for itself and is a worthy secondary arcanum for any mage. As for the pocket dimensions, why would you lack Indefinite Duration? You can just reach for it, the primary spell factor already covers the dice penalty for duration, leaving the rest of the dice pool for scale. That’s just one overreach, and another if you just have to have the biggest pocket dimension possible. Just be ready to pay the mana cost and/or accept that some of your pocket dimensions might come out … funny.

Edit: Maybe I should start double checking if people have already answered the question while I write my answer.

[orathaic]

. As for the pocket dimensions, why would you lack Indefinite Duration?

Correct, I don't have Signs.

The attainment in the core book explicitly says the imbued spell may not have indefinite duration (while the imbuing of the spell is lasting).

So you can have glasses of darkvision, which are activated whenever you put them on (costing 1 mana) and which last for a day (any duration which isn't indefinite).

Then you spend 1 more mana to repeat the spell. But you can also take them off and give them to someone else to activate darkvision for that character... Also paying the mana and lasting the day.

Taking off the imbued items doesn't automatically cancel the spell (it is unclear if spells can have deactivation options similar to the activation rules, I'm guessing they should if the creator decided).

Obviously if these we're indefinite spells, you could use one imbued item to cast the same indefinite buff on everyone in the Consilium, and then sell the imbued item, or put it away... forcing the items to pay 1 mana for the spell every single time and not be indefinite balances things up a little (it becomes a 1 mana/duration/spell upkeep cost, rather than 1 mana forced and no upkeep).

I guess that depends on how the Mage relinquishes the imbued item

Of course, the relinquish is done by the creator.

It takes one spell slot from the creator until it is relinquished (no matter how many times the spell is cast). And then it can be relinquished safely or unsafely and takes 0 spell slots (or the imbued item has a spell slot - kinda like a flag bearer)

So basically you have no yantras, maybe spell factors, set reach, user's Gnosis* plus the Spell's Arcanum rating (optional on reducing the reach but still paradoxes).

I am presuming the subject of the spell can't be locked, so in the glasses of darkvision example it doesn't automatically target the user, but if it is at touch range and the activation trigger is putting the glasses in your head, then it is pretty hard to target anyone else?? Whereas a 'Gun of Howl From Beyond', with the right reach(s) would target whoever the caster decided to (presumably, using 'point gun at the subject of your Spell's as the activation trigger if you can to make it intuitive - though there is no reason to assume the creator wanted that...)

*Which may be zero if cast by a sleeper, werewolf or anyone without gnosis.

[orathaic]

Things that show up prominently in the Temenos are there because of how prominent they are in a culture, and I think that origin point among people is the thing to focus upon.

I guess it isn't an element of consensusal reality then, if the mage strongly identifies with their shadow name, it grounds them in the fallen whether other people understand the symbology or not.

And thus a trip to the Temenos to understand* a rival may not be particularly useful. Though if their personal understanding of Odin differs greatly from the Temenos version, it still has the "Don't expect to take the name Odin and not lose an eye" - implying there is feedback as the world pushes its symbols onto the mages identity (perhaps you generated your own Fate?)

*Or mess with the Temenos symbology, attempting to undermine them. You might aswell write a superhero comic featuring their shadow name as a character and hope it catches on...

[orathaic]

Although I presume that when casting with Ritual time the option remains to lengthen the casting for bonus dice

Very strange to think of the user having to do it a ritual time (presumably off of their own Gnosis, which might oreclude sleepers, of give them the same Gnosis 1 as for the paradox roll).

But yes, if the reach for instant casting has not been taken, it must be at ritual time with the ritual effectively being the activation trigger.

It just seems odd because in my head the imago is there (though obviously it's not all there as the subjects and spell factors can change) and it seems to be designed as a 'press button -> generate effect'

Doing a fairly long ritual (say for a sleepwalker) with a comparatively weak effect (though +5 for 18 hours does more than double the dice pool for a 5 dot spell) seems rather underwhelming.

Still a Sleepwalker using a Making practice or Unmaking is a fairly impressive feat (even if the duration is limited... You can have a portable hallow generator which will then refill the manapool of the imbued item...)

EDIT: though the cost of Create Truth is not something i had noticed until just now. Break even on mana would be fairly slow... Though making lasting Hallows with an imbued item is probably setting breaking - with standard scale, i presume that Hallow is 'arms lenght from a central point' in scale.