Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[TempleBuilder]

The attainment in the core book explicitly says the imbued spell may not have indefinite duration (while the imbuing of the spell is lasting).

erm… I may be (metaphorically) blind and (actually) sick but I just reread the entire thing and it says nothing of the sort that I could find. Can you post a quote, please? (The closest thing I could find says spells “a spell cast by using a imbued item might run out”. That is a very different wording from no indefinite spells)

So you can have glasses of darkvision, which are activated whenever you put them on (costing 1 mana) and which last for a day (any duration which isn't indefinite).

Then you spend 1 more mana to repeat the spell. But you can also take them off and give them to someone else to activate darkvision for that character... Also paying the mana and lasting the day.

Yep, but you can make a version of them that has the spell as indefinite.

Taking off the imbued items doesn't automatically cancel the spell (it is unclear if spells can have deactivation options similar to the activation rules, I'm guessing they should if the creator decided).

That’s a Fate attainment. Otherwise it just stays active until the duration runs out, or the creator ends the spell.

Obviously if these we're indefinite spells, you could use one imbued item to cast the same indefinite buff on everyone in the Consilium, and then sell the imbued item, or put it away... forcing the items to pay 1 mana for the spell every single time and not be indefinite balances things up a little (it becomes a 1 mana/duration/spell upkeep cost, rather than 1 mana forced and no upkeep).

Yes. You can do that. Except extremely few mages would allow themselves to be buffed in that style. Because anyone who can make a imbued item can also hide spells and their effects, and unless you personally examine the imbued item, with the proper arcana, you can’t know what exactly else is in the spell. Combined spells are a thing. Secondly, indefinite spells are offhandedly mentioned to sometimes cause people to go raptured. Not something most would want to risk, like radiation, people don’t want to risk even a very safe dose. Same goes for most mages, I think.

I am presuming the subject of the spell can't be locked, so in the glasses of darkvision example it doesn't automatically target the user, but if it is at touch range and the activation trigger is putting the glasses in your head, then it is pretty hard to target anyone else?? Whereas a 'Gun of Howl From Beyond', with the right reach(s) would target whoever the caster decided to (presumably, using 'point gun at the subject of your Spell's as the activation trigger if you can to make it intuitive - though there is no reason to assume the creator wanted that...)

In SoS, there is a “Curse” that has the imbued item only able to target whoever activated it. You can intentionally build that into your imbued item. Aside for that, aimed spells are the same spell factor as touch, so every item that is touch only can be aimed. Secondly, and I can’t stress this enough, have someone skilled in Prime double check any imbued items you get, to at least to know if it works as it’s supposed to.

[orathaic]

erm… I may be (metaphorically) blind and (actually) sick but I just reread the entire thing and it says nothing of the sort that I could find. Can you post a quote, please?

Yes.

Imbued Item (•+, Special)
Effect: An Imbued Item is an item storing a spell that does not have an indefinite duration

Page 102

I note there is no reference in the attainment section, and there is

Enhanced Item (•+, Special)
Effect: Your character owns an item enhanced by indefinite Duration spells, which permanently modify the item’s properties.

Page 101

But i assume this refers to items with (for example) an indefinite alter integrity to enhance the item.

And the Lexicon describes Matter as the arcanum which 'tools, machines, and enhanced items.' - so i take it that these two merits have nothing to do with each other, excepting that if you put the effort into imbuing an item you might want to enhance it with alter itegrity to make it harder to destroy (though that spell, not being an attainment, can be dispelled).

Rereadind the attainment, the only bit i am confused by is "The caster decides whether the spell imbued into the item is persistent (always active) or contingent (triggered by a word, gesture, or condition)." - does the user need to do the spell roll for persistent effects? If they aren't indefinite then they can only last until their duration... It seems like you are supposed to be able to have an always on spell effect (like a Ward on your sanctum) which doesn't cost you spell control because it is imbued, and which can be dispelled (as usual, but with lower potentcy, because it is hard to gain large dice pools on imbued spells).

I just like that narratively you could steal an item from someone's sanctum and disable its security system...

EDIT: Contingent seems to mean my glasses of night vision could automatically switch off when they are taken off... Without using a fate attainment. But now I'm not sure.

EDIT 2: You could create a hammer of alter integrity, but without indefinite duration, you couldn't use it to produce unlimited enhanced items (even if you could, duration indefinite would be a -10 dice pool and pretty hard to do for lower Gnosis characters and Sleepwalkers).

[TempleBuilder]

Page 102

I note there is no reference in the attainment section, and there is

Wow, and first line too. I am blind, because I definitely reread that part. Hmm, so guess we have a choice now. Because it again doesn’t mention anything about indefinite in the SoS attainment creation clarification. I used a word finder and everything. So you can interpret that has not being able to make such things, or you can interpret that as such items not being able to bought with merit points. To muddy things further, Imbued Ally, a new merit in SoS says:

Your character has imbued a spell with a indefinite duration into a person or creature who is bound to her using the Prime Attainment, Imbue Item

Personally, I think that if such a restriction was completely intended, there would be a mention in the crafting rules.

Page 101

But i assume this refers to items with (for example) an indefinite alter integrity to enhance the item.

And the Lexicon describes Matter as the arcanum which 'tools, machines, and enhanced items.' - so i take it that these two merits have nothing to do with each other, excepting that if you put the effort into imbuing an item you might want to enhance it with alter itegrity to make it harder to destroy (though that spell, not being an attainment, can be dispelled).

Your interpretation is seemingly correct.

Rereadind the attainment, the only bit i am confused by is "The caster decides whether the spell imbued into the item is persistent (always active) or contingent (triggered by a word, gesture, or condition)." - does the user need to do the spell roll for persistent effects? If they aren't indefinite then they can only last until their duration

Slightly expended on in SoS.

Chosen by the creator on Imbuement. Persistent items are always active until their spell’s duration expires, unless dispelled. Contingent Items are triggered by a word, gesture, or condition set by the creator. Only one spell in a item may be Contingent

Apparently once dispelled, you need Word of Command to reactivate the spell, which does require you to roll, twice in fact.

... It seems like you are supposed to be able to have an always on spell effect (like a Ward on your sanctum) which doesn't cost you spell control because it is imbued, and which can be dispelled (as usual, but with lower potentcy, because it is hard to gain large dice pools on imbued spells).

I just like that narratively you could steal an item from someone's sanctum and disable its security system...

In the event of indefinite duration security systems, I’d rule that the imbued item that created them would be a powerful yantra to effect or bypass them.

EDIT: Contingent seems to mean my glasses of night vision could automatically switch off when they are taken off... Without using a fate attainment. But now I'm not sure.

I don’t believe this to be the case as Contingent spells re defined properly above.

EDIT 2: You could create a hammer of alter integrity, but without indefinite duration, you couldn't use it to produce unlimited enhanced items (even if you could, duration indefinite would be a -10 dice pool and pretty hard to do for lower Gnosis characters and Sleepwalkers).

That’s what primary spell factors are for. *realizes even with duration as the primary spell factor that’s still a -4 penalty* Makes it more plausible anyways. Willpower goes a long way I guess. Or you could use the 2 reach option to make it Lasting in this specific example. Actually I’m not seeing any mention of primary spell factors in the imbuement rules, I guess the default assumption would have the primary spell factor be linked to the spell’s arcanum rating. It could also be equal the Creators, but that seems more complicated. Or I guess you could go with it having no primary spell factors, which is a strange thing to not mention in the item creation rules. This is starting to remind me of the Changeling “fae twilight” debate.

[KaiserAfini]

I think what is being said in page 102 is that you cannot obtain an Imbued item with an indefinite duration spell via purchase alone, since most mages would not want to risk their client abusing it, Consilia or Order precedent might have ruled against it or people simply do not want to deal with the Paradox risk of stronger ones. In this way, it means the mage either needs to make it themselves, negotiate via some powerful boon or get incredibly lucky on the field. I believe that should reconcile what both sources are saying.

[Isator Levi]

Honestly, I think the first line of the Imbued Item Merit was just a slightly awkward way of saying that the object is carrying the spell but it's not based on it having an indefinite duration.

I'm observing now that the parameters of Enhanced Item are a bit broader than they were in First Edition, where it referred to something that had specifically had Durability, Structure, or Tool Bonus improved. The reading of it in the current rendition would be that you could have an object that has, say, been made to have acidic properties with what it touches and that would be Enhanced, but it would still be based on being an Indefinite duration spell that can be removed from it. The power of an Imbued Item cannot be extracted without breaking it.

To be frank, I think there's a distinct lack of clarity about what Persistent Effects are, and the notes in Signs of Sorcery on them lasting for their Duration actually make it more confused. So you've got a choice between something that is "always active" (until it naturally runs out of time, and then needs to be manually activated in some fashion again) and something that can only be triggered by a set activity that also ends up with a limited duration. It ultimately ends up sounding like so-called Persistent Effects are just Contingent stuff that is more difficult to use. The more straight reading is that their effect really is active at all times, but that would end up clashing with a clear sense of what their factors actually are; even if they functionally amount to free indefinite effects, how are Potency and Scale determined? It actually makes me question the value of the distinction.

Oh, to just follow that note about a Ward, spells don't Withstand being dispelled with their Potency, they do it with the Arcanum rating of the caster; a Ward cast by an Apprentice needs a Potency 3 dispellation to break it, that of a Master needs a 6. Although the Reach to increase that Withstand by 2 is used on Advanced Potency, that actual spell factor has no significance to it.


Indeed, because Ward is a spell based on providing a Clash of Wills, improved Potency is actually wasted on it... unless a Ward can only Clash as many space warping or sympathy targeting powers as it has Potency, per the guidelines on page 126-127. Hmm...

[orathaic]

Oh, to just follow that note about a Ward, spells don't Withstand being dispelled with their Potency, they do it with the Arcanum rating of the caster;

Of course, i keep forgetting this.

It seems clear the imbued items use the Arcana rating from the item rather than the user (or indeed the creator) - at least this is the case for the dice pool.

I am going to guess that the withstand is the arcanum rating of the spell (with a possible +2 for advanced potency). Does SoS clarify?

Wow, and first line too. I am blind, because I definitely reread that part.

No your brain just filled in the details without reading because you've probably read it multiple times before... Human brains take shortcuts! Just look at your blind spots

I'm not sure i like that 'you can't buy it with a merit'* or In Character explaination. I'd prefer to run a system which makes sense.

Contingent imbued spells which turn on and off based on a simple user action (is not a spell roll) : indefinite duration, 0 mana to activate, can only be 'cast' once (unless dispelled with lasting) - as its imago is always in use - which would also prevent messing with spell factors.

Persistent spells, which are always (at least) 1 mana and a spell roll to activate, and last until their duration is over. Can be cast multiple times, costing mana each time, but only one spell slot.

This gives a reason for two different ways of casting, or types of spell.

It is reminding me of 1st Ed (LARP) conversations i had about imbued items, i was firmly of the opinion that each spell you loaded into an item was a one use, and so a lasting damage spell was like loading a shotgun with one Shell. Whereas a hone the form spell with indefinite duration could be used only by one person at a time and could be switched on and off but would always be the same spell...

*EDIT: I'm compiling a list of magical items; Imbued, Fetish, Enhanced are the ones with merits...just for quick reference. There are more types of items than you can buy as a merit, so sure, that seems fair. But i think a balance of permanent conditional vs non-indefinite 1 mana per activation works fine for my purposes (that is ignore the rule which doesn't seem to make sense and run something balanced and fun).

EDIT2 : Actually the more i think about it, the more sense my persistent/contingent division makes sense. Eg:
1) Persistent Atheric Wind, effect lasting, cost 1 mana, roll Gnosis + 3 (Spell's Arcana), deal potency damage.
2) Contingent Wards and Signs, effect duration, once cast it may be switched on or off as needed (instant action?) Target withstands spells by potency

[Satchel]

Contingent imbued spells which turn on and off based on a simple user action (is not a spell roll) : indefinite duration, 0 mana to activate, can only be 'cast' once (unless dispelled with lasting) - as its imago is always in use - which would also prevent messing with spell factors.

Persistent spells, which are always (at least) 1 mana and a spell roll to activate, and last until their duration is over. Can be cast multiple times, costing mana each time, but only one spell slot.

Got these backward, chief.

[orathaic]

Got these backward, chief.

The names do seem back asswards.

"The caster decides whether the spell imbued into the item is persistent (always active) or contingent (triggered by a word, gesture, or condition)"

My thought is that the 'always active' spell is the one you want to be able to switch on and off with a condtion/trigger. Which is contingent... But i see how you are correct on that.

[TempleBuilder]

Of course, i keep forgetting this.

It seems clear the imbued items use the Arcana rating from the item rather than the user (or indeed the creator) - at least this is the case for the dice pool.

I am going to guess that the withstand is the arcanum rating of the spell (with a possible +2 for advanced potency). Does SoS clarify?

Nope, but your reasoning makes plenty of sense.

No your brain just filled in the details without reading because you've probably read it multiple times before... Human brains take shortcuts! Just look at your blind spots

Yeah, I just wish I didn’t have so many blind spots though.

I'm not sure i like that 'you can't buy it with a merit'* or In Character explaination. I'd prefer to run a system which makes sense.

That’s fair. Personally I find being able to put any spell on a imbued item to be more consistent with the rest of Mage, but you do whatever works for you.

[Satchel]

The names do seem back asswards.

"The caster decides whether the spell imbued into the item is persistent (always active) or contingent (triggered by a word, gesture, or condition)"

My thought is that the 'always active' spell is the one you want to be able to switch on and off with a condtion/trigger. Which is contingent... But i see how you are correct on that.

Yeah, no, the literal definition of "persistent" is that it persists, whereas "contingent" means that it's not necessarily going to be happening at any given time, because depends on something happening.

You can want it not to be that way, but the distinction is "does this keep happening constantly" versus "does this happen when a trigger is applied," regardless of what you'd prefer it to be as someone who didn't make the decision about which way the item was made.

Contingent items aren't toggled on and off, they're either in a state of having been activated or they aren't, with early termination being a function of normal spell control for the creator.

[orathaic]

Seems a bit aggressive, but let me clarify two things.

Firstly:

Contingent items aren't toggled on and off, they're either in a state of having been activated or they aren't, with early termination being a function of normal spell control for the creator.

My reading of this:

contingent (triggered by a word,
gesture, or condition)

Is probably confused by the condtion part. My understanding is if the condition ends so does the spell (like the Conditional Duration Fate attainment).

I am specifically saying, a pair of glasses which are trigger by putting them on, but have conditional duration ending the spell of you take them off (or the condition is being worn, and i interpret the rules to mean the spell ends if the condition is not satisfied).

Secondly, i am saying the rules for indefinite spells in imbued items are not clear. With one paragraph explicitly forbidding them.

I would house rule that as described above - to give two options both of which have advantages and disadvantages - and describe what are intuitive items for players to enjoy the game.

[orathaic]

New Question: i know this has been discussed before, (I'm only 230 pages into this thread, ok?) But two small things about Supernal Veil

"This spell wards its subject, which can be a
spell, object, mage, supernatural creature, or any other active magical phenomenon, from detection"

Should this not be magical object? Object seems to be out of place in this spell.

Second: whether or not the above uses Prime's purview of Truth and not Magic, could you creative thaumatergy a Veiling of the Truth (of subject's objectively true existence) to hide anything from everything (like various time spells that make the rest of the world simply act as if a subject with no history never existed - see Space 5 spell Quarentine).

Probably CoW for supernatural detection, but essentially a more powerful than Incognito Presence (unless it is also withstood?)

EDIT: on second thought, veiling the objective Truth of my existence should just make people question it, not fail to see it... Still makes witnesses to your actions have some reasonable doubts (in a legal sense). Eg: "Witness1 i definitely saw him murder the Mayor
Defence Lawyer: but are you sure he even exists?
Witness1: i... Eh.. definitely saw someone who looked like him murder the Mayor."

[TempleBuilder]

New Question: i know this has been discussed before, (I'm only 230 pages into this thread, ok?) But two small things about Supernal Veil

"This spell wards its subject, which can be a
spell, object, mage, supernatural creature, or any other active magical phenomenon, from detection"

Should this not be magical object? Object seems to be out of place in this spell.

Yep, they mean magical objects. You know, you can probably Veil Yantras too, so maybe ordinary objects from a Sleepers perspective can be veiled. That’s possibly a different spell though.

Second: whether or not the above uses Prime's purview of Truth and not Magic, could you creative thaumatergy a Veiling of the Truth (of subject's objectively true existence) to hide anything from everything (like various time spells that make the rest of the world simply act as if a subject with no history never existed - see Space 5 spell Quarentine).

Probably CoW for supernatural detection, but essentially a more powerful than Incognito Presence (unless it is also withstood?)

It should be withstood, since this is effectively a reverse Words of Truth, and you are not changing the Truth itself, just hiding it. A non withstood version can be achieved through Patterning, I think.

EDIT: on second thought, veiling the objective Truth of my existence should just make people question it, not fail to see it... Still makes witnesses to your actions have some reasonable doubts (in a legal sense). Eg: "Witness1 i definitely saw him murder the Mayor
Defence Lawyer: but are you sure he even exists?
Witness1: i... Eh.. definitely saw someone who looked like him murder the Mayor."

This is pretty much how it goes. Prime can’t mess with any of the regular properties that go into detection like Mind or Life or Forces or most of the other arcanum, but the veiling Truth of your presence does technically work. It just produces some rather odd results. Let’s say you veil the Truth of your identity, people who would recognize you could describe you in exact detail, even draw a perfect sketch of you, and recognize everything you are doing, and never realize it was you. Maybe they think it’s a extremely well done costume, someone who likes like you, or that they are hallucinating or dreaming. When the spell ends, they will probably be able to recognize that it was you all along, (though they probably wouldn’t come to that realization without some prompting,) but until then, even if you tell them exactly what’s going to happen, they will know that it’s not you. When compared to Veiling of Mind/Life etc, they can produce similar results, but they can outright make people fail to recognize that there is anything there at all. When Veiling the Truth of your existence, people will know that the person who shot the mayor doesn’t exist. They mayor was shot, it was a murder, witnesses could describe the murderer perfectly, but the murderer is a person who doesn’t exist. This doesn’t protect your identity by the way, people will still recognize you. And they will know you don’t exist. And if any sleepers think too hard about how someone who doesn’t exist managed murder someone and shows up on cameras, you are going to have a huge problem with dissonance. And once the spell ends you are going to have problems. For example, your description is still plenty of evidence enough to make a case against you. This, on the whole, makes this a bad spell for not getting caught. Instead, look to enhance your lies with Veiling, and Veil your identity and specific parts of your identity (like your skin tone or tattoos or other major identifying features), and Veil the fact that you aren’t where you belong. Maybe set up a scapegoat by Veiling your identity as someone else, so they take the fall and the case gets closed quickly. And accept that both memories, records, sketches, and cameras will potentially be problems in the long term. You probably will want to invest in a safely relinquished indefinite spell that Veils the fact you murdered the mayor. Also, other Mages will be able to figure out what you did pretty easily.

Edit: Grammar.

[KaiserAfini]

Page 123 states that Veiling cannot affect abstract concepts, you can hide the truth of a subject but not from truth itself (the subject does exist and has some truth). So you can use it to make everything you say sound genuine or everything someone else says sound like a lie. Mundane methods will be unable to pierce it and supernatural effects cause a Clash of Wills.

So putting that together, it means you could, for example, change the contents of the piece of paper. So you could redact text, change a map into a picture or make it the color of the wall to hide a poster. But it would still have the tactile sensation, shape, weight and any other properties of the default paper.

Regarding Supernal Veil, its main purpose is to hide anything under its purview from supernatural senses. This means casting it combined with a spell makes it not ping the Peripheral Sight, the mage register as a Sleeper or an Artifact as just an object.

But the thing is, sometimes the important thing is just mundane. The journal that leads to a long lost temple is just ink on paper, its because it was written by a Sleepwalker that its contents are valuable. The special herbal candle is just a candle, but its also the ban of the ghost that is haunting the antique shop. Sure, they can still see it with their eyes, but hiding them from their supernatural abilities is already a big help.

[orathaic]

Page 123 states that Veiling cannot affect abstract concepts, you can hide the truth of a subject but not from truth itself (the subject does exist and has some truth).

Thanks for that, though that paragraph seems a bit off ( "A target can be made to lose all sense of time (Time)" but the counter example "a mage can’t Veil herself against death or hide from time" - especially considering the written up veiling of time which prevent poisons, bleeding to death and natural healing).

But yeah, i think this is veiling a concrete (objective truth) example of the abstract, not the abstract concept of truth itself.

Regarding Supernal Veil, its main purpose is to hide anything under its purview from supernatural senses. This means casting it combined with a spell makes it not ping the Peripheral Sight, the mage register as a Sleeper or an Artifact as just an object.

That is exactly my interpretation, but not how it was agreed earlier in this thread. Hiding a spell hides the entire thing (but spells are hidden by default unless you decide for setting reason you want the world to have Display of Power always on - a la the magic in Doctor Strange). I presume this spell also hide an Eidolon, which is 'obviously magical' but it is entirely made of tasks, so like a spell, would it completely disappear? (I'm going back to my thoughts on Eidolons as retainer guardians, but using them as an environment which is not visible to sleepers - or conditionally dissapears when a sleeper walks by - would be cool).

Unrelated Eidolon question, can they gain mana by performing a blood sacrifice? (I'm thinking a bird of prey - with a spirit appropriate to murdering small animals - refilling the Eidolon's mana pool by murdering small animals).