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  • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    Regarding Supernal Veil, its main purpose is to hide anything under its purview from supernatural senses.
    This is a common interpretation, but the text says nothing about hiding things specifically from supernatural senses. Other Veiling spells of the same kind tend to hide the subject (which is under the purview of the Arcanum) from any sort of detection, both magical and mundane. Nothing about Supernal Veil indicates it would work any different from its literal wording.
    Personally, I do favour that it merely hides the supernatural parts of the subject (even though that's technically not stated in the spell, but it's how it should work given the description for Veiling spells). So no casting Supernal Veil on yourself to become completely undetectable by direct means just because you're a mage and thus technically supernatural.

    You could definitely craft a spell that would hide its subject specifically from supernatural senses, but since the method of detection falls under the purview of Prime, the subject no longer needs to be and could theoretically be anything. In this case you could cast the spell on a mage to have the mage become undetectable to any supernatural senses, but you could also cast it on a Sleeper, or on that rock over there. Now you can't use Matter to gain info about the rock's mineral composition without winning a CoW.

    Originally posted by orathaic View Post
    but spells are hidden by default
    Peripheral Mage Sight pings on all spells that aren't about concealment, and Active Mage Sight will reveal all spells from the Arcana of your Mage Sight (except for Prime which instead reveals all spells). Casting Supernal Veil on spells does a lot to keep those spells hidden from other mages.


    Writer for Bloodlines: The Ageless on STV
    Some other stuff I've done: Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • Peripheral Mage Sight pings on all spells that aren't about concealment, and Active Mage Sight will reveal all spells from the Arcana of your Mage Sight (except for Prime which instead reveals all spells). Casting Supernal Veil on spells does a lot to keep those spells hidden from other mages
      thank you, always good for the reminder. I was talking about mundane senses, hence my bit about making spells look like they do in Dr. Strange (both the films and comics are very visual mediums, so it doesn't surprise me that they made this choice - mechanically you could have it as an option: -1 reach, make your spell visible to mundane senses, but practically in front of sleepers this gains you nothing, as they add 1 dice of paradox, and away from sleepers you would be making a choice between easier counter spelling for more power).

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      • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
        Thanks for that, though that paragraph seems a bit off ( "A target can be made to lose all sense of time (Time)" but the counter example "a mage can’t Veil herself against death or hide from time" - especially considering the written up veiling of time which prevent poisons, bleeding to death and natural healing).

        But yeah, i think this is veiling a concrete (objective truth) example of the abstract, not the abstract concept of truth itself.
        If you are referring to Veil of Moments, I think you will find that that particular spell is Shielding you from the effects of the passage of Time, not Time as a whole.

        Originally posted by orathaic View Post
        That is exactly my interpretation, but not how it was agreed earlier in this thread. Hiding a spell hides the entire thing (but spells are hidden by default unless you decide for setting reason you want the world to have Display of Power always on - a la the magic in Doctor Strange). I presume this spell also hide an Eidolon, which is 'obviously magical' but it is entirely made of tasks, so like a spell, would it completely disappear? (I'm going back to my thoughts on Eidolons as retainer guardians, but using them as an environment which is not visible to sleepers - or conditionally dissapears when a sleeper walks by - would be cool).
        I’ve read a post on the forum that explains this better, but Veiling can do 3 things. It can completely hide something from something under it’s bailiwick, it can obscure one of the properties under it’s bailiwick, or it can completely hide something that completely falls under it’s bailiwick. Incognito Presence Is a example of the first one, it hides you from Minds. Supernal Veiling is a example of the second, it hides one of the properties of the subject. Lastly, Hidden Hoard is a example of there third that completely hides material objects from everyone and everything.

        So, yes, Prime Veiling can completely hide a Eidolon. I’m not sure if it’s technically the same spell though, since Supernal Veiling is type 2 and this new one is a type 3. It would seem to me that you can hide a Eidolon’s “obviously magical nature” with Supernal Veiling.

        Originally posted by orathaic View Post
        Unrelated Eidolon question, can they gain mana by performing a blood sacrifice? (I'm thinking a bird of prey - with a spirit appropriate to murdering small animals - refilling the Eidolon's mana pool by murdering small animals).
        By default, no. You can only Channel Mana into it by default, I think. (I don’t have the book on me right now.) That being said, you can probably Weave it in, as I recall, Mages can do something similar, and Mages a under the Purview of Prime. At the very worst, you can imbue it with Prime/Death spell that uses gives mana when you kill something.

        Edit: You absolutely can Veil stuff from just Sleepers with Prime. A spell that conditionally hides a thing or reveals itself based on who is nearby requires Archmastery. Note that there is a difference between the two.
        Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-10-2022, 01:19 PM.


        To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

        So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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        • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
          If you are referring to Veil of Moments, I think you will find that that particular spell is Shielding you from the effects of the passage of Time, not Time as a whole.

          I’ve read a post on the forum that explains this better, but Veiling can do 3 things. It can completely hide something from something under it’s bailiwick, it can obscure one of the properties under it’s bailiwick, or it can completely hide something that completely falls under it’s bailiwick. Incognito Presence Is a example of the first one, it hides you from Minds. Supernal Veiling is a example of the second, it hides one of the properties of the subject. Lastly, Hidden Hoard is a example of there third that completely hides material objects from everyone and everything.

          So, yes, Prime Veiling can completely hide a Eidolon. I’m not sure if it’s technically the same spell though, since Supernal Veiling is type 2 and this new one is a type 3. It would seem to me that you can hide a Eidolon’s “obviously magical nature” with Supernal Veiling.

          By default, no. You can only Channel Mana into it by default, I think. (I don’t have the book on me right now.) That being said, you can probably Weave it in, as I recall, Mages can do something similar, and Mages a under the Purview of Prime. At the very worst, you can imbue it with Prime/Death spell that uses gives mana when you kill something.

          Edit: You absolutely can Veil stuff from just Sleepers with Prime. A spell that conditionally hides a thing or reveals itself based on who is nearby requires Archmastery. Note that there is a difference between the two.

          Technically you could give them a mana battery. Then modify a Hallow so it has Plentiful Tass and so one of the ley lines "conducts" the mana into a battery charge spot, which might require conjunctional Forces or Matter. Utilizing that and multiple batteries, you could technically have a self sustaining Eidolon, provided they periodically switch out their charged packs.


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
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          • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


            Technically you could give them a mana battery. Then modify a Hallow so it has Plentiful Tass and so one of the ley lines "conducts" the mana into a battery charge spot, which might require conjunctional Forces or Matter. Utilizing that and multiple batteries, you could technically have a self sustaining Eidolon, provided they periodically switch out their charged packs.
            Quite true, this is probably more efficient for a self sufficient Eidolon, but I think the idea is that the Eidolon is going to be doing a number of tasks regularly to maintain its disguise as a normal creature. Might as well as get “food” from the creatures it hunts, if it’s going to be hunting regularly for no normal benefit besides disguise. It’s not a bad idea, especially since with the proper spirit inside, it also gets fed with essence.
            Edit: Heck, if it has a spirit inside, you can probably Weave gaining mana to when the spirit produces essence in general.
            Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-10-2022, 03:27 PM.


            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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            • First, apologies for the typos above, i didn't get a chance to edit them out.
              Edit: You absolutely can Veil stuff from just Sleepers with Prime. A spell that conditionally hides a thing or reveals itself based on who is nearby requires Archmastery. Note that there is a difference between the two
              There is a difference, i was specifically thinking of the latter. But i thought it would be achievable (if risky) with the imbued item attainment. You imbue the veiling spell into the Eidolon, and give the spell a conditional trigger, now the item already has a mana pool, and would in theory be able to activate itself (without a mind I'm assuming it is no good at deciding when it should activate itself, but in terms of rolling it is equivalent to a sleeper (Gnosis 0) + Arcana dots of the spell) but with conditions... What are you able to do to automatically trigger the spell? (Admitted that a 2 dice pool without the option to spend willpower isn't great, plus every attempt to cast results in 1 mana used).

              And even then, if the condition was 'when a sleeper sees you' - assuming that is valid. I think it still triggers dissonance (infact possibly on both the veiling and the Eidolon, as that is two magical effects). Does that become a non-issue if the Eidolon kills the sleeper (who has invaded the sanctum and he now been attacked by a potentially 10 dice retainer combatant who is invisible)? That is can dead sleepers trigger dissonance?

              So, yes, Prime Veiling can completely hide a Eidolon. I’m not sure if it’s technically the same spell though, since Supernal Veiling is type 2 and this new one is a type 3. It would seem to me that you can hide a Eidolon’s “obviously magical nature” with Supernal Veiling.
              You may be right, i was thinking of a Eidolon as basically made of magic. Even if tass is Mana made solid, it is still under the purview of Prime... But normal tass just looks like a normal item (to mundane senses). So it should be possible to view an Eidolon so they don't trigger dissonance but are still visible to sleepers (not forcing them to fight an invisible retainer).

              Technically you could give them a mana battery.
              I presume you mean with imbue item, but as they already have a mana pool, my thinking was they can naturally hold mana in their pattern.

              By default, no. You can only Channel Mana into it by default, I think. (I don’t have the book on me right now.)
              Looking up the Eidolon spell, it says "A mage may “refill” the construct with the Channel Mana spell (p. 168) or similar effects."

              So here it my reasoning, you don't need Death spells to get mana from a death, so long as you do a blood sacrifice. And afaik, sleeper thaumatergy and vampire blood magic can both do similar effects.


              "Blood Sacrifice offers Mana. In an Act of Hubris, the mage kills a living being for Mana. Its death releases Mana from its Pattern. A small animal offers one Mana, while human sacrifices offer as much Mana as the person had Integrity dots remaining before the killing blow. The Mana gained from Sacrifice ignores the spend/Turn limits on Mana if the sacrifice is part of a spell’s casting."

              I note, it can be done in a ritual way during a spell to add mana to pay for the spell, but a mage can simply kill a being, releasing mana from its pattern (is there some specific ruling about how the killer absorbs that mana? It doesn't require Death or Prime at least).

              So i am presuming anyone can do this, but most Patterns can't store mana by default. In which case the Eidolon has a unique advantage. Still it is unclear if it can be done this way. The spirit of murder birds will happily murder small animals without an act of hubris (it will likely generate resonance and possibly gain essence, right?) - i think it is also clear that an Eidolon without a mind can't do this complex of a job, maybe an Eidolon 'with its own mind' would be able to do it more effectively, since it can be given complex order to complete a ritual blood sacrifice - but blood sacrifice doesn't seem to need any ritual.

              That being said, you can probably Weave it in, as I recall, Mages can do something similar, and Mages a under the Purview of Prime.
              Ah, so without an imbued spell? I think to weave that feature from the mage template you would have to study how blood sacrifice actually works (ie treat it as a mystery, which means watching a few? Probably using active mage sight (Death, Life and Prime) to see how it affects the Soul, how the life releases mana, and how the mage's pattern absorbs the mana.

              Is that fair? Or maybe a knowing spell of Prime would he enough to understand how it works?

              If you are referring to Veil of Moments, I think you will find that that particular spell is Shielding you from the effects of the passage of Time, not Time as a whole.
              Of course, i think i am confusing the practice there. My bad.
              Last edited by orathaic; 01-10-2022, 03:54 PM.

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              • Heck, if it has a spirit inside, you can probably Weave gaining mana to when the spirit produces essence in general.
                My assumption was that converting mana and essence was now much harder (they took out the spell which allowed it from 1st Ed.) I was presuming they wanted to make mana considerably harder to get (scouring wounds are now lethal, matter/prime i forget which can't use putting out the rubbish and dismantling its pattern to gain mana, no direct essence to mana transfer - except familiars- and channel essence allows a mage to have essence in their pattern which takes up mana pool space but isn't usable as mana). As a design goal, i approved, because limited resources makes for drama.

                Quite true, this is probably more efficient for a self sufficient Eidolon, but I think the idea is that the Eidolon is going to be doing a number of tasks regularly to maintain its disguise as a normal creature.
                Yes, the idea that an Eidolon could be made self-sufficient was it. Choosing a spirit and form appropriately (to that task of killing) was the easy part. I don't have a problem with bird of prey killing small animals not causing a Act of Hubris - maybe creating this Eidolon killing machine would be an Act of Hubris for the mage who created it, but hell it is still fun.

                The hard part is making clear that they can be self sufficient. Having an AI type mind which returns to your sanctum and absorbs excess mana from the Hallow (assuming it would otherwise turn into tass anyway) or imbuing channel mana into it so it can take mana directly from the Hallow (or indeed death imbuement as you mentioned) all seem reasonable alternatives.

                None of them end up with a cute murder bird hunting for its mana. And they seem less elegant, this actually feels like the easiest to do (Arcana-wise it is Spirit 3, Prime 5 Vs Prime 5, Mind 5, Death 3/4?)
                Last edited by orathaic; 01-10-2022, 03:55 PM.

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                • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  First, apologies for the typos above, i didn't get a chance to edit them out.
                  No worries, I think you were clearly understood without much effort on our part, so all is well. Besides, if I went after you for typos, I’d be a massive hypocrite.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  There is a difference, i was specifically thinking of the latter. But i thought it would be achievable (if risky) with the imbued item attainment. You imbue the veiling spell into the Eidolon, and give the spell a conditional trigger, now the item already has a mana pool, and would in theory be able to activate itself (without a mind I'm assuming it is no good at deciding when it should activate itself, but in terms of rolling it is equivalent to a sleeper (Gnosis 0) + Arcana dots of the spell) but with conditions... What are you able to do to automatically trigger the spell? (Admitted that a 2 dice pool without the option to spend willpower isn't great, plus every attempt to cast results in 1 mana used).
                  Ah. I thought you meant as a single spell. This changes things. Yes, you can do this with imbued items, or a Eidolon in this case. As for the condition…well I think it works. I’m not certain though. There is a new type of Yantra in SoS called a Basilisk, that happens to cast spells when it is seen. It also requires Fate 2 to use, since it works by using that Attainment. I’d personally would be happier if the creator of the imbuement also used Fate 2.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  And even then, if the condition was 'when a sleeper sees you' - assuming that is valid. I think it still triggers dissonance (infact possibly on both the veiling and the Eidolon, as that is two magical effects). Does that become a non-issue if the Eidolon kills the sleeper (who has invaded the sanctum and he now been attacked by a potentially 10 dice retainer combatant who is invisible)? That is can dead sleepers trigger dissonance?
                  It most likely does. Things don’t normally immediately vanish when you see them. No, the process is caused by a sleeper, sure, but after it starts it still does it’s thing. Dead sleepers tend to not be able to perceive magic, and thus tend not to cause more dissonance.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  You may be right, i was thinking of a Eidolon as basically made of magic. Even is tass is Mana made solid, it is still under the purview of Prime... But normal tass just looks like a normal item (to mundane senses). So it should be possible to view and Eidolon so they don't trigger dissonance but are still visible to sleepers (not forcing them to fight an invisible retainer).
                  Which is much better than them straight up disappearing when spotted. Nothing magical about getting hacked to pieces. Strange and horrible, but not magical. A 10 dice combatant will still easily overpower most others especially since the majority of humans are not skilled fighters. The dissonance involved with being permanently invisible or disappearing when spotted isn’t worth potential losing the spell guardian entirely. Depending on the circumstances, and what you are guarding and why, people seeing that you have a big and tough guardian prevents having to kill people as often.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  I presume you mean with imbue item, but as they already have a mana pool, my thinking was they can naturally hold mana in their pattern.
                  Actually, there is a new spell in SoS called Mana Battery. It gives stuff a mana pool.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  Looking up the Eidolon spell, it says "A mage may “refill” the construct with the Channel Mana spell (p. 168) or similar effects."

                  So here it my reasoning, you don't need Death spells to get mana from a death, so long as you do a blood sacrifice. And afaik, sleeper thaumatergy and vampire blood magic can both do similar effects.
                  Hmm. I guess this depends on wether anything with mana pool can preform Oblation. I’m fairly certain only things with minds and a Supernal connection can. Vampire blood magic and sleeper thaumatergy are not relevant to Supernal magic, just because they can do something doesn’t mean a mage can and visa-versa.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  "Blood Sacrifice offers Mana. In an Act of Hubris, the mage kills a living being for Mana. Its death releases Mana from its Pattern. A small animal offers one Mana, while human sacrifices offer as much Mana as the person had Integrity dots remaining before the killing blow. The Mana gained from Sacrifice ignores the spend/Turn limits on Mana if the sacrifice is part of a spell’s casting."
                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  I note, it can be done in a ritual way during a spell to add mana to pay for the spell, but a mage can simply kill a being, releasing mana from its pattern (is there some specific ruling about how the killer absorbs that mana? It doesn't require Death or Prime at least).
                  I think normally it’s supposed to just be absorbed by the Mage in question. I do know there is a Mysterium ritual to relies on preventing this and watching the mana spread out and dissolve.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  So i am presuming anyone can do this, but most Patterns can't store mana by default. In which case the Eidolon has a unique advantage. Still it is unclear if it can be done this way. The spirit of murder birds will happily murder small animals without an act of hubris (it will likely generate resonance and possibly gain essence, right?) - i think it is also clear that a Eidolon without a mind can't do this complex of a job, maybe an Eidolon 'with its own mind' would be able to do it more effectively, since it can be given complex order to complete a ritual blood sacrifice - but blood sacrifice doesn't seem to need any ritual.
                  The problem is that it might depend on there being a act of hubris. It might depend on it being a Mage doing the sacrifice. (Which was what my Prime Weaving spell tried to use). It might also depend on both. Or it could be something anyone can do. I think we both agree that a mindless Eidolon can’t do it on it’s own, but it’s possible you can order a mindless Eidolon to kill stuff and gain mana as long as you do it for the mana. Good way to lose Wisdom quickly though.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  Ah, so without an imbued spell? I think to weave that feature of the mage template you would have to study how blood sacrifice actually works (ie treat it as a mystery, which means watching a few? Probably using active mage sight (Death, Life and Prime) to see how it affects the Soul, how the life releases mana, and how the mage's pattern absorbs the mana.
                  Oh, imbuing it into the Eidolon is better, but it’s not necessary. Sounds like a perfect set of mysteries.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  Is that fair? Or maybe a knowing spell of Prime would he enough to understand how it works?
                  It’s better than just fair, not only do you end up with a nifty new spell, you get arcane beats. Knowing would not help here, I think.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  Of course, i think i am confusing the practice there. My bad.
                  It is fine, I’m just amused at Veil of Moments being Shielding while Shield of Chronos is Veiling. Happens to also be Time’s only example of a Veiling spell. Really, they had to do that on purpose.


                  To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                  So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by orathaic View Post

                    My assumption was that converting mana and essence was now much harder (they took out the spell which allowed it from 1st Ed.)I was presuming they wanted to make mana considerably harder to get (scouring wounds are now lethal, matter/prime i forget which can't use putting out the rubbish and dismantling its pattern to gain mana, no direct essence to mana transfer - except familiars- and channel essence allows a mage to have essence in their pattern which takes up mana pool space but isn't usable as mana). As a design goal, i approved, because limited resources makes for drama.
                    I’m going to assume that’s because they didn’t put any examples of Patterning something into another arcanum. You can turn stuff into Mana, it’s just that it takes Prime 4 and the appropriate Arcanum 4 to do so. It’s the same thing as turning flesh into stone. Heck, there is a Death spell that lets you pattern scour other people for mana. Mana isn’t exactly rare, if you have Prime and know what you are doing. For example, with knowing you can locate Hallows, with perfecting you can just increase the amount you get out of pattern scouring, and with Making, you can make all the Mana you could need. Now it’s not nearly enough for all the demand for mana, but it’s not particularly rare. Basically, for the average mage, there is enough mana to do stuff, but not be terribly wasteful, with Prime, especially having Ruling Prime, you can afford to be a little wasteful now and then.


                    Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                    Yes, the idea that an Eidolon could be made self-sufficient was it. Choosing a spirit and form appropriately (to that task of killing) was the easy part. I don't have a problem with bird of prey killing small animals not causing a Act of Hubris - maybe creating this Eidolon killing machine would be an Act of Hubris for the mage who created it, but hell it is still fun.
                    I think it’s definitely a act of hubris for the mage that created it, but it’s probably not anything particularly bad for the Eidolon or spirit. Heck, the spirit is probably thrilled, as this is pretty much a minor spirits dream job.

                    Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                    The hard part is making clear that they can be self sufficient. Having an AI type mind which returns to your sanctum and absorbs excess mana from the Hallow (assuming it would otherwise turn into tass anyway) or imbuing channel mana into it so it can take mana directly from the Hallow (or indeed death imbuement as you mentioned) all seem reasonable alternatives.

                    None of them end up with a cute murder bird hunting for its mana. And they seem less elegant, this actually feels like the easiest to do (Arcana-wise it is Spirit 3, Prime 5 Vs Prime 5, Mind 5, Death 3/4?)
                    Heck this version could just be Prime and a familiar. This one certainly has a certain style to it. Though, technically my Death one could use a ghost as it’s mind.


                    To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                    So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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                    • To clarify, a mana battery is an item that holds a certain amount of mana. While holding it, a user can transfer it into their pattern. More details can be found on page 70 of Signs of Sorcery

                      I think it might make more sense to create a Supernal Knowledge spirit by utilizing a Patterning of Prime and Spirit (more details on page 124 of the core book) on an existing one. Modify them to gain sustenance from Supernal secrets. Now it has to do its job well in order to survive.

                      Its naturally invisible in Twilight (unless someone has the Spirit 2 Attainment), can manipulate others and maintain a disguise by Fettering itself to them, can become better at its job by Claiming a host, can make quick exits via Discorporation. It has the flexibility of Influences and the Numina for more precise tasks. It also has an incentive to cultivate a spirit choir to help it be more efficient at its job, if not an entire Mystery Cult that flies under the radar of Awakened society by being a Nameless organization.


                      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

                      Comment


                      • I’d personally would be happier if the creator of the imbuement also used Fate 2.
                        That seems perfectly reasonable and another Mark against imbued items in my mind.

                        Thanks for all the rest of your comments, I've read them and laughed a few times.

                        I suppose my only other question is, if an act of Hubris is required (as indeed the rules state) what Acranum's purview would that be under? Death for the Soul? Mind for the mind? Fate for the Intentions (like you don't just get mana for accidentally killing an animal or stepping on it, you have to intend to kill it).

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                        • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                          To clarify, a mana battery is an item that holds a certain amount of mana. While holding it, a user can transfer it into their pattern. More details can be found on page 70 of Signs of Sorcery
                          Thank you, i thought i had seen the term used and presumed it was a reference to making imbued items with mana pools to carry around extra mana (while Eidolon already seem to have that).

                          I suppose the advantage is how easy it is to access the mana.

                          I think it might make more sense to create a Supernal Knowledge spirit by utilizing a Patterning of Prime and Spirit (more details on page 124 of the core book) on an existing one. Modify them to gain sustenance from Supernal secrets. Now it has to do its job well in order to survive.

                          Its naturally invisible in Twilight (unless someone has the Spirit 2 Attainment), can manipulate others and maintain a disguise by Fettering itself to them, can become better at its job by Claiming a host, can make quick exits via Discorporation. It has the flexibility of Influences and the Numina for more precise tasks. It also has an incentive to cultivate a spirit choir to help it be more efficient at its job, if not an entire Mystery Cult that flies under the radar of Awakened society by being a Nameless organization.
                          I completely misunderstood what you meant. So Patterning, like Living Pillar of Flame, you mean a spirit which has been transformed into the Purview of Prime? That i kinda like... (More than my wrong assumption about this just being a use of Shape Spirit, to change the spirit's fundamental nature into a spirit of Supernal Knowledge).

                          I do think a full Patterning would also allow you to create something more like a supernal being, or also turn a Spirit into a Ghost/Goetia... Not sure what use that would be... Could you drag a spirit of Supernal Knowledge into your Onerious, and use it as an internal wikipedia?

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                          • I meant more along the lines of a being halfway between both Arcana. In essence I imagined a spirit which can act see Supernal magic, can affect all layers of Twilight and can manipulate either Essence or mana to fuel itself.

                            Regarding extracting it into their Oneiros, sure its possible. A precedent exists, just modify the spell Goetic Evocation from page 90 of Signs of Sorcery. Sorry if I keep going back to that book, it just has that many interesting spells. Anyway, using that spell means you are placing a monomaniacal knowledge being into the part of your soul that defines your personality and emotions, so it wouldn't be exactly good for the subject's sanity


                            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by orathaic View Post

                              That seems perfectly reasonable and another Mark against imbued items in my mind.
                              Imbued items aren’t bad, just mildly unwieldy. They are best for minions and allies who don’t have the same capabilities you do.

                              Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                              Thanks for all the rest of your comments, I've read them and laughed a few times.
                              Then I have done well.

                              Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                              I suppose my only other question is, if an act of Hubris is required (as indeed the rules state) what Acranum's purview would that be under? Death for the Soul? Mind for the mind? Fate for the Intentions (like you don't just get mana for accidentally killing an animal or stepping on it, you have to intend to kill it).
                              A tricky question, I think.

                              Wisdom, in many ways, is a barrier between a Mage’s Magic, and the Fallen World. This is best seen in the long term nimbus, which is free to wreak more havoc the lower one’s Wisdom. Something comparable would be the Gauntlet, to the Shadow and the Fallen world. The Gauntlet falls under Spirit, and thus I think Wisdom falls under Prime. In fact, the only spell that I know of that interacts with Wisdom is Nimbus Tuning, which is Prime Knowing (in SoS). But I’m not sure it completely falls under Prime. I think it has parts of it scattered throughout the Subtle Arcana, since in no uncertain terms, Wisdom is part of the Soul. After all, when Wisdom fails, Rapture follows. And Rapture is the Soul breaking under the strain of Obsession.

                              But why does the act of sacrifice grant mana? If it relies on the Act of Hubris, other acts of Hubris do not grant mana. So then, why does this one in particular? Why does sacrifice generate power, not just for the Awakened, but certain Sleepwalkers and Vampires too? Is the important thing not the act of hubris, but the breaking point itself?

                              I think we need definite answers to those questions before there can be a clear answer. Perhaps someone with more setting knowledge than me can give a better answer. That being said, if a player of mine wanted to do this, Prime and any of the other Subtle Arcana would work. Frankly, I have a hunch Mind or Death might be able to do it alone, depending on if the important thing is the damage to the mind or the soul, ie if a breaking point with any integrity like stat works.

                              Edit: minor clarification
                              Second edit: I adore the concept of that Prime Familiar. That’s not really important, but I feel it must be said.
                              Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-10-2022, 10:34 PM.


                              To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                              So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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                              • I adore the concept of that Prime Familiar. That’s not really important, but I feel it must be said
                                This raises another question, are supernal beings under the purview of Prime?

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