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  • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
    This raises another question, are supernal beings under the purview of Prime?
    Considering how the game bothers to categorize and name ten types of Supernal entities by Arcana, I’d rule that you have to use the corresponding Arcanum. So Forces for Seraphim, Time for Anachronisms, etc. Gonna have to check if SoS said anything, though.


    MtAw Homebrew:
    Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
    New 2E Legacies, expanded

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    • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
      Imbued items aren’t bad, just mildly unwieldy. They are best for minions and allies who don’t have the same capabilities you do.
      Well, there are a lot of spells, and how much any given one of them can work within the limits of an imbued item will vary.

      If I'm a member of any Path other than Acanthus, and somebody hands me a coin that can answer questions about the future, I'm not turning it down even if getting it to work is a bit of a strain on two dice. Like, I'm not generally going to need to increase any of the factors, so I can just about get it going (maybe strain a bit with Willpower). Even if it wasn't given the Reach option to ask more sophisticated questions.

      "Well why doesn't the character just learn the Time Arcanum?"

      Because the XP that could go towards that is preferred for other things, and all they really want out of Time is the divination anyway.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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      • Weird question time: Can Life by itself make alterations like weapons attached to the body? Like a bone sword, or spines that can be fired like a ranged weapon. If so, do those Brawl/Athletics or Weaponry/Firearms?


        To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

        So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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        • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
          Weird question time: Can Life by itself make alterations like weapons attached to the body? Like a bone sword, or spines that can be fired like a ranged weapon. If so, do those Brawl/Athletics or Weaponry/Firearms?
          Within the limits of what's physically possible to achieve when using purely biological materials.
          The most relevant published spell, Transform Life, is exclusively concerned with traits that exist in other creatures, but there's really nothing that says you can't freely reshape a living subject. As long as it's a singular trait it should still be Weaving, but unlike Transform Life, a single spell should not be able to grant multiple different "weapon" traits that aren't based on a common base effect. I.e. a spell could have bone spikes for melee combat and a Reach option to make them launchable, but a spell could not grant both bone spikes and an acid spray.

          Now, what's actually possible to do, I don't know. I'm not an expert in biology. You can definitely make short blades or stingers that uses Brawl, but could you make a bone sword long enough to require Weaponry without it breaking on a hit? And how would you handle loss of biomass when launching projectiles? Would you take damage from losing part of your body's mass?


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
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          • Thank you for your answer.
            I have new question, possibly weirder: What would it take to talk to someone who died in childbirth, as if they had lived instead? Is that even possible? (For context, I thought of a character who wanted to talk to a older sibling who didn’t make it, and wanted to see the differences between them.)


            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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            • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
              Weird question time: Can Life by itself make alterations like weapons attached to the body? Like a bone sword, or spines that can be fired like a ranged weapon. If so, do those Brawl/Athletics or Weaponry/Firearms?
              To supplement Tessie's answer, a general thing to keep in mind with Supernal magic as a narrative device is that, as-presented, it cannot be an exercise of pure abstraction to devise a new spell — some kernel of the concrete world and its symbolism should come into play as a grounding factor in the process of magical innovation, whether that's figuring out how to exploit the qualities of a Mystery or just spending a chapter or three Obsessing over how to get the shape of the Imago to work out and taking meaningful inspiration from the events accompanying that contemplation.

              Established biology supplemented by Perfecting spells can cover a lot of ground, but as mentioned, Life doesn't give you the tools to be exempt from the issues of physically using your new adaptations. Wonderful Machine probably isn't entirely required for replicating stuff at the level of the simple machines (the pulley and the wheel and axle notwithstanding), but I feel like if you're trying to create biological features that directly evoke tools that mankind devised (e.g. arm-blades that are clearly just swords grafted to your limbs instead of simple claws or sharp plates of armor) you're jumping into symbolism that entails Matter.

              The general focus of the Skills is such that Brawl is used for weapons that are an inseparable part of your body that don't reach much further than the part of the body that's moving them and Firearms is for weapons whose short range is nevertheless long enough that you'd basically have to be an Olympic athlete to cross the same distance in a single turn of running. They overwhelming majority of published powers representing a mode of attack that's part of the character's body use Brawl or Athletics.

              Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
              I have new question, possibly weirder: What would it take to talk to someone who died in childbirth, as if they had lived instead? Is that even possible? (For context, I thought of a character who wanted to talk to a older sibling who didn’t make it, and wanted to see the differences between them.)
              Postcognition using Temporal Sympathy, cast as a combined spell with Prophecy.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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              • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                Thank you for your answer.
                I have new question, possibly weirder: What would it take to talk to someone who died in childbirth, as if they had lived instead? Is that even possible? (For context, I thought of a character who wanted to talk to a older sibling who didn’t make it, and wanted to see the differences between them.)
                I think there was a summonable Supernal Being in Summoners (1E supplement) that did something similar…


                MtAw Homebrew:
                Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                • Originally posted by Satchel View Post

                  Postcognition using Temporal Sympathy, cast as a combined spell with Prophecy.
                  I'll admit, the parameters for attaching spells to ones that call for Temporal Sympathy eludes me a bit, but it's in the Attainment description so I'm at least open to ideas for how it would work.

                  Still,Prophecy as written wouldn't really provide a result like what has been asked for. It could provide insight into events that could happen to a subject out of the hypothetical scenario of still being alive (and only as many answers as the spell's Potency), but not model a person to the point of being able to converse with them. That to me sounds like Imperial Practice of Dynamics.

                  So like, legendary Artifact, assistance from Aeon Glorianna, or summoning a suitable Anachronism seems necessary. I recall the one 21C Hermit is referring to as not quite being along the lines of the question, but close enough to suggest that the adjustment is within the possibilities of the Fae.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                  • Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                    I think there was a summonable Supernal Being in Summoners (1E supplement) that did something similar…
                    If I remember correctly, the Supernal being uses a temporal sympathy link to the imitate the person. Its almost perfect, but it always has a flaw that reminds you its not. Could be the voice, a personality trait, hair color, etc. It stays around until someone calls it out as a fake, whereupon it returns to the Supernal with the offered sympathetic thread.


                    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
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                    • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                      I'll admit, the parameters for attaching spells to ones that call for Temporal Sympathy eludes me a bit, but it's in the Attainment description so I'm at least open to ideas for how it would work.

                      Still,Prophecy as written wouldn't really provide a result like what has been asked for. It could provide insight into events that could happen to a subject out of the hypothetical scenario of still being alive (and only as many answers as the spell's Potency), but not model a person to the point of being able to converse with them. That to me sounds like Imperial Practice of Dynamics.

                      So like, legendary Artifact, assistance from Aeon Glorianna, or summoning a suitable Anachronism seems necessary. I recall the one 21C Hermit is referring to as not quite being along the lines of the question, but close enough to suggest that the adjustment is within the possibilities of the Fae.
                      What about using a custom spell mixing elements of Psychic Genesis and Prophecy. Using Temporal Sympathy, you lock on to the point of divergence. Then Time speculates on the timeline where they would have lived and Mind builds a personality based on those parameters. Its still just a copy of them, but I imagine its close enough to grant closure.
                      Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-12-2022, 02:33 PM.


                      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                      • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

                        What about using a custom spell mixing elements of Psychic Genesis and Prophecy. Using Temporal Sympathy, you lock on to the point of divergence. Then Time speculates on the timeline where they would have lived and Mind builds a personality based on those parameters. Its still just a copy of them, but I imagine its close enough to grant closure.
                        Well for a start, I'm thinking that Prophecy establishes a reasonable standard for the limits of Patterning an alternate or hypothetical future, and it seems far smaller than the scope of a human life.

                        And Psychic Genesis is sufficient to bring up a Rank 1 Goetia, 2 at a Reach, and if Goetia are anything like spirits and ghosts then the first two Ranks constitute a consciousness less sophisticated than that of a human.

                        I think the best such a spell could produce would be a snapshot of a subject's one opinion on one topic (per Potency). You're not making somebody you can converse with, you're staring through a keyhole to try and get some insight into them.

                        I think short of archmastery, your most surefire way to get an idea of what a non-existant person would be like is to go back in time, alter the course of events so they lived, and then inhabit the timeline in which they exist for a while. Cancel the spell before the changes become Lasting.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                        • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                          And Psychic Genesis is sufficient to bring up a Rank 1 Goetia, 2 at a Reach, and if Goetia are anything like spirits and ghosts then the first two Ranks constitute a consciousness less sophisticated than that of a human.
                          Geist's perspective on Rank 1 human ghosts is that they're still people, just massively hampered by being caught up in the circumstances of their death. Per Astral realms, the most common goetia that aren't just living scenery are Rank 1, have no Numina, and are largely indistinguishable from normal people aside from living in the collective unconscious; none of the treatment we've seen for the Astral in 2e appears to fully invalidate this presentation.

                          Even setting aside the question of Rank 1, Rank 2 ghosts are used as the benchmark for "ghosts largely indistinguishable from living people," described as "intelligent" in Mage and "sapient" in Geist. A Rank 2 ephemeral being is generally the approximate NPC equivalent of a basic supernatural PC in power and cognizance, even bearing in mind that that subset of ephemeral beings also includes its share of animalistic monsters and inanimate objects.


                          Resident Lore-Hound
                          Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                          • In addition, unlike Goetic Invocation, which fills in the blanks using the symbolic information around the soul stone, the use of Temporal Sympathy allows a comprehensive and objective reference for the mind being duplicated. Now I feel like codifying this into a full spell.


                            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                            • You can turn stuff into Mana, it’s just that it takes Prime 4 and the appropriate Arcanum 4 to do so.
                              Ok, so a mage who has studied how Changelings harvest glamour (mystery) could attempt to replicate the feat and then using Patterning to convert the energy into mana (Mind 4+ Prime 4). As an example (my other suggestions are copying vampire blood extraction, Life 4 + Prime 4 - which is close to blood sacrifice, but doesn't require killing the subject of an act of Hubris - though it may well be, and an equivalent of channel essence, drain vitae, Death 4 + Prime 4 to take blood points from a vampire and convert them i to mana).

                              Edit: moving to a seperate post.
                              Last edited by orathaic; 01-12-2022, 11:50 PM.

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                              • Seperate question, just so i understand how advanced scale works (pushing it to its mechanical limits).

                                i was looking at sensory range, mass subject spell (-20 dice pool penalty to target 5,120 subjects). And my thinking is that -20 isn't that hard (dice pool of Gnosis 5 + Arcana 5 + ritual timex6 3hours+ Mundras skill + persona + sacrament + mantra = dice pool of 29 (using a +3 sacrament, +4 persona (shadow name, cabal theme) enchance skill to 5 dots if you don't have the full Mundras skill...).

                                The hardest thing seems to be keeping the 5,120 targets in sensory range for 3 hours - presumably you do something like go to a concert and target the audience members - but you can't keep sensing them all individually... Like you can focus on them one at a time or hear the noise they are generating...

                                Alternatively this is 5,120 buildings of size 60 (which are arguably easier to target given that buildings don't tend to move about and are big enough to clearly make out at sensory range from some distance...)

                                Is this (pushed to the limit) how advanced scale is supposed to work (and you can do that as an instant spell with 1 reach, 1 willpower and a loss of 2 dice...but you still have to build you imago around 5,120 targets, doing so in a few turns seems like the crowd of humans won't move around as much, but if you needed to focus on them it would take much more time...)

                                Edit: to get a ritual with teamwork to up this dice pool allows indefinite duration spells, though with a spell which has duration as the primary factor, mastery means your default duration is 1 year, right? So 2 reach, 1 mana and -2 dice pool pentaly to turn this effect into an indefinite one.

                                Or in total, sensory range, advanced scale, advanced duration, indefinite duration = 4 reach, +1 mana.
                                Or 5 reach, 1 willpower and 1 mana for instant casting. With a 7 dice pool remaining... (EG: You could cast an indefinite soul armour on 5,120 people, without any paradox risk - at ritual time or 3 dice of paradox at instant time)
                                Last edited by orathaic; 01-13-2022, 12:02 AM.

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