Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[KaiserAfini]

Seperate question, just so i understand how advanced scale works (pushing it to its mechanical limits).

i was looking at sensory range, mass subject spell (-20 dice pool penalty to target 5,120 subjects). And my thinking is that -20 isn't that hard (dice pool of Gnosis 5 + Arcana 5 + ritual timex6 3hours+ Mundras skill + persona + sacrament + mantra = dice pool of 29 (using a +3 sacrament, +4 persona (shadow name, cabal theme) enchance skill to 5 dots if you don't have the full Mundras skill...).

The hardest thing seems to be keeping the 5,120 targets in sensory range for 3 hours - presumably you do something like go to a concert and target the audience members - but you can't keep sensing them all individually... Like you can focus on them one at a time or hear the noise they are generating...

Alternatively this is 5,120 buildings of size 60 (which are arguably easier to target given that buildings don't tend to move about and are big enough to clearly make out at sensory range from some distance...)

Is this (pushed to the limit) how advanced scale is supposed to work (and you can do that as an instant spell with 1 reach, 1 willpower and a loss of 2 dice...but you still have to build you imago around 5,120 targets, doing so in a few turns seems like the crowd of humans won't move around as much, but if you needed to focus on them it would take much more time...)

Edit: to get a ritual with teamwork to up this dice pool allows indefinite duration spells, though with a spell which has duration as the primary factor, mastery means your default duration is 1 year, right? So 2 reach, 1 mana and -2 dice pool pentaly to turn this effect into an indefinite one.

Or in total, sensory range, advanced scale, advanced duration, indefinite duration = 4 reach, +1 mana.
Or 5 reach, 1 willpower and 1 mana for instant casting. With a 7 dice pool remaining... (EG: You could cast an indefinite soul armour on 5,120 people, without any paradox risk - at ritual time or 3 dice of paradox at instant time)

That sounds difficult to prepare, since you will need:

- The spell as a rote, which means either requisitioning a grimmoire via Order status (doubling the casting time), finding one, borrowing one via a boon, finding a mentor or creating the rote yourself. It then needs to have a skill mudra that the caster has maximum proficiency in (which can be arranged with Mind).

- A master level in that Arcana, meaning heavy Arcane XP investment

- A safe space where they can commit for 6 hours of uninterrupted casting. This would grant a +7 bonus, which is compromised of a +5 from extended ritual time (core book page 114) and a +2 from using a ritual time cleansing yantra (Signs of Sorcery page 53). Reporters, enemies and local Sleepers can all cause interruptions and this is more likely in a largely populated target area.

- Casting a mantra only takes a turn, so one might as well use it

- Since the spell is taking ritual time, throw a +2 from a rune for free if casting on the area. Otherwise, they would need to paint runes in all 5000 subjects.

With the mantra, mudra, cleansing and rune, all 4 yantra slots for a Gnosis 5 mage are taken. At that point, the easiest way to add more dice is probably to use a high Potency version of Exceptional Luck (core book page 135).

Even then, provided the runes aren't used, the other alternatives require heavy investment. The +2 sacraments require the mage to go through extra effort to get the needed supernatural components and a Shadow Name may not necessarily symbollically resonate with the spell. The dedicated Shadow Name, the custom rote, the rare ingredients, this sounds like a cast conducted with ample preparation and investment, pulling it off is anything but simple.


Additional notes:

The teamwork spell would require people who know the Arcanum to avoid a -3 penalty (core book page 119) and have rehersed the casting to avoid the -2 penalty (Signs of Sorcery page 55), adding more preparation time.

Assuming all are Gnosis 5 masters, the instant spell would cause 9 paradox dice, since Gnosis 5 gets 3 dice per Reach. This is the bare minimum per caster, provided their Paradox pool is clean at that point. So preparing a lot of mana is necessary to avoid potentially summoning a Rank 6 Abyssal Invader (core book 116), which would not only cause cataclysmic harm, but also be near impossible for non-archmages to banish. Even if the casters managed to send the Invader back, the Lex Magicka would probably rule this as a crime worthy of Spiritual Oblivion (destroying the condemned's soul).

Lastly, you would need to supplement it with a way for all participants to magically perceive all possible targets, otherwise sensory range will not be able to affect all subjects.

[orathaic]

I don't see how runes would help, 1) the need to be written in the subject - and take ritual time to compete - very hard with 5 thousand unwitting subjects.

2) for an indefinite spell, this is rather unwise as it will end as soon as the runes are disturbed.

I am assuming you have a master at the centre of this casting (with or without teamwork) so they can create the rote - and teach it to all able to cast the spell for teamwork if that is necessary (and i just realised that can get a +1 from order rote specialisation, but I presume this doesn't allow you to go to +6 just like enhanced skill beyond normal human limits can't exceed the +5 mundras bonus).

In this case for a sheilding spell, you get 4 free reach, and avoid any paradox roll. Probably worth the investment.

Actually i think maintaining sensory range is the hardest. If someone leaves the area during casting to go to the toilet, or you turn around to pick something up, they go out of visual range. If you are using your hearing for sensory range, it seems much harder to pick out any individual subject. If using smell harder still touch is an odd sense to consider using for sensory range, but might be possible if everyone files past you and you don't have to keep touching them... (Taste is right out!)

"The Advanced Range factor is sensory, meaning that the mage must be able to directly see, hear, or sense her subject"

This does not specify that you must focus on the subject, or be able to see them directly for the entire ritual time... Using exceptional luck with a big bonus would do away with the need for either ritual or teamwork. Which makes everything much easier; though you have to find a someone to cast that spell.

[orathaic]

In fact, beyond sensory range, you can get touch range with a brawl or weaponry action. This suggests touch includes touching them with something the caster is holding.

As such, for large groups can you have everyone hold hands and use touch range (this is assuming willing participants).

EDIT: i am assuming they all have to be touching at the same time, and not allow them file past, shaking hands with the caster over the course of a ritual time period. Though that seems to be as reasonable as casting on 5,000 people at sensory range - as they may be moving around a lot.

[TempleBuilder]

I am assuming you have a master at the centre of this casting (with or without teamwork) so they can create the rote - and teach it to all able to cast the spell for teamwork if that is necessary (and i just realised that can get a +1 from order rote specialisation, but I presume this doesn't allow you to go to +6 just like enhanced skill beyond normal human limits can't exceed the +5 mundras bonus).

I don’t think there is a problem with going to +6, I think there would be a different arrangement of the sentences if they didn’t want such a outcome to be possible. It would have been better to say that “having the order skill adds extra dot of skill for the purposes of the dice bonus” if they wanted the cap at +5. Instead, they say, when using your orders skill, add a die. That doesn’t suggest a cap at +5 to me. That being said, If you think it makes more sense to cap the total at +5, then by all means, do so.

As for helping the spell, most arcanum can provide minor help, by causing certain yantras to be more convenient. Mind in particular can increase the dice gained by using Willpower, which will help with teamwork, and Prime can increase the spell dicepool directly like Exceptional Luck. (Requires +2 reach)

Also, depending on the character, the first level of the Egregore merit really helps with teamwork spell casting. An automatic extra die per full participant is quite good.

[KaiserAfini]

I don’t think there is a problem with going to +6, I think there would be a different arrangement of the sentences if they didn’t want such a outcome to be possible. It would have been better to say that “having the order skill adds extra dot of skill for the purposes of the dice bonus” if they wanted the cap at +5. Instead, they say, when using your orders skill, add a die. That doesn’t suggest a cap at +5 to me. That being said, If you think it makes more sense to cap the total at +5, then by all means, do so.

As for helping the spell, most arcanum can provide minor help, by causing certain yantras to be more convenient. Mind in particular can increase the dice gained by using Willpower, which will help with teamwork, and Prime can increase the spell dicepool directly like Exceptional Luck. (Requires +2 reach)

Also, depending on the character, the first level of the Egregore merit really helps with teamwork spell casting. An automatic extra die per full participant is quite good.

Even Egregore can be substituted and surpassed, especially since all participants must have it to get the benefit. All that is required is to find a Rank 2+ ephemeral being of Teamwork (I think a goetia might be easiest). Then have them use their Strengthen Influence to grant extra dice, with any used Essence being replenished via a use of Making. Requires a bit of diplomacy, but is still very viable.

[TempleBuilder]

Even Egregore can be substituted and surpassed, especially since all participants must have it to get the benefit. All that is required is to find a Rank 2+ ephemeral being of Teamwork (I think a goetia might be easiest). Then have them use their Strengthen Influence to grant extra dice, with any used Essence being replenished via a use of Making. Requires a bit of diplomacy, but is still very viable.

Heh, yeah that works much better.
New but related question: is it possible to use Time or Mind (or both) to be able to spend more than one willpower per action?

[orathaic]

One thought on reapers, is it possible to wait until the point of death and then (if needed shifting sands back a turn) snatch the soul as it is about to leave the body?

Is this a way to avoid acts of hubris while acquiring souls (whether it is still drowned upon by Consilium or not). I imagine Fate would make it relatively easy to find targets who are about to die.

[Tessie]

You could just cast Soul Jar on someone who's about to die. When they do, the soul remains stuck in the corpse rather than moving on.
While it's certainly more ethical than taking a soul from someone who's using it, or worse, killing someone for their soul, Wisdom is not a measurement of ethics or morality. It's probably still an Act of Hubris due to the character hindering the soul from moving on without knowing what would've happened, and probably for whatever they want to use the soul for anyway.

[orathaic]

At least you're not leaving a trail of soulless people behind...

Unrelated question: can i extend a damage spell (saying fraying of mind) so if it has 3 potency and 3 turns duration, the damage is 1 bashing per turn?

Or make it even slower with extended duration, slowly damaging them over the course of a day? (I'm thinking either a reach or a Creative thaumatergy spell). Just like a mild headache which gets more severe and the damage is drawn out?

[Isator Levi]

Wisdom is not a measurement of ethics or morality.

Well it's not solely about that, but nor are those things incidental. I think the concerns of ethics in Wisdom aren't really abstract matters so much as a question of the attitude one cultivates in how they relate to other people from a position of power; the outcomes of use of power aren't just the domino effect but also how comfortable one is with using it to have licence over other people's lives. I'd say that's why losing Wisdom can give one an Obsession with dominating others and disable their capacity to empathise, and mages are going to look on that as a bad thing for reasons ranging from "the uses of power emerging from that attitude are going to inevitably constitute further hubris" to "Gnosis gives us an awareness of the weight and interconnectedness of all things, and when that has the greatest clarity we're intimately aware of the value of other human lives and of our valuing those things".

[Isator Levi]

The creative thaumaturgy rules show how damage spells with long durations will periodically apply their Potency damage after intervals equal to the mage's ritual casting time. Make a Fraying spell last for a day, it will cause 3 bashing damage every 3 hours (if you're Gnosis 1).

I'd say spells that do other forms of damage over time need to produce effects that would already cause that kind of damage, like how Forces can bring about a fire that harms over extended contact.

[orathaic]

The creative thaumaturgy rules show how damage spells with long durations will periodically apply their Potency damage after intervals equal to the mage's ritual casting time. Make a Fraying spell last for a day, it will cause 3 bashing damage every 3 hours (if you're Gnosis 1).

I'd say spells that do other forms of damage over time need to produce effects that would already cause that kind of damage, like how Forces can bring about a fire that harms over extended contact.

I'm not thinking about creating effects which then do damage over time (like using forces to create a fire which keeps burning, or presumably you could use life to burst a blood vessel in the brain).

Just changing the instant Potency damage of a lasting effect direct damage spell into a slower Potency damage over spell duration(or over ritual time, i guess) so 3 bashing every 3 hours (say), but have it slowed to 1 bashing per hour (they would actually heal that naturally... So it would be like a really annoying pain in your head every hour... But i am thinking of an effect which feels like a constant pain).

[Tessie]

The rules do not allow for changing how ritual intervals work like that. Direct damage dealing spells are not meant to cause damage over time, or they would do so as part of their base effect.

If the point isn't to inflict any actual damage and only cause pain, then that would be much better handled by a Condition.
If you do want to cause damage but at a steady pace not dictated by your Gnosis, then a Tilt would be the best fit.
In both cases the spell would be Withstood by the subject.

[orathaic]

The rules do not allow for changing how ritual intervals work like that. Direct damage dealing spells are not meant to cause damage over time, or they would do so as part of their base effect.

If the point isn't to inflict any actual damage and only cause pain, then that would be much better handled by a Condition.
If you do want to cause damage but at a steady pace not dictated by your Gnosis, then a Tilt would be the best fit.
In both cases the spell would be Withstood by the subject.

It isn't that i don't want to cause damage, it is just that dealing less that 1 point of bashing every 15 minutes would mean it keeps healing.

I guess it is closer to a poisoned condition - though reading the rules on poisons, the tilt seems excessive. Applying a condition seems idealer

[KaiserAfini]

With a Patterning of Life or Mind, you could inflict the Chronic Agony persistent condition. Its definitely painful, its very inconvenient since it can stun the target at a critical time and can be fine tuned so that the physical (or mental if cast using Mind) stimulus sends a message.