Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[orathaic]

New question: we know from the counter spell attainment that you can mess with someone else's spell as they cast it* - and arguably this is also what is happening during teamwork spell casting - but just thinking of counterspell (not sure how it is described in 2e, i know in 1e it was pulling at the threads of the spell to cause it to come undone) can you instead try to push the spell to do something else - most destructively to draw down more paradox on the caster.

I think subtle things like changing the subject, or messing with the spell factors should require co- operation (as in the teamwork rules), but just drawing more paradox down should be about as difficult as countering a spell - are there any written rules for this kind of effect (whether for scelesti or abyssal entities?)

*Not after it is cast, as the only thing that can be done to a spell after it is cast is to reduce /dispell it.

[TempleBuilder]

New question: we know from the counter spell attainment that you can mess with someone else's spell as they cast it* - and arguably this is also what is happening during teamwork spell casting - but just thinking of counterspell (not sure how it is described in 2e, i know in 1e it was pulling at the threads of the spell to cause it to come undone) can you instead try to push the spell to do something else - most destructively to draw down more paradox on the caster.

I think subtle things like changing the subject, or messing with the spell factors should require co- operation (as in the teamwork rules), but just drawing more paradox down should be about as difficult as countering a spell - are there any written rules for this kind of effect (whether for scelesti or abyssal entities?)

*Not after it is cast, as the only thing that can be done to a spell after it is cast is to reduce /dispell it.

Well, Night Horrors: Nameless and Accursed describes adding Paradox to another’s spell as one of the primary benefits of embracing your inverted Watchtower. Actually controlling the paradox involved is reserved to those who have successfully negotiated with the Old Man (ie the Aeon of the Abyss) or an Annuaki for power and privilege.

[KaiserAfini]

Lets say a master of Fate casts Swearing an Oath on themselves with advanced duration (1 year) and advanced Potency. The oath is: "I will not allow any of my spells to be dispelled or countered without my consent, may fear visit me should I fail". So they would be Charmed while under its effect and hexed by the Spooked condition upon failing to uphold it.

This means any kind of counterspell or dispellation would automatically provoke a Clash of Wills where they would gain +5 bonus dice (+4 from duration and +1 from advanced Potency). This makes me wonder about 2 specific scenarios:

1- The mage is counterspelled without being aware, unlike Oaths Fullfilled, there is no restriction regarding whether the phenomenon could be perceived by Mage Sight or not, so would the Clash of Wills with a dice bonus automatically trigger before the counterspell could affect the Imago being made ?

2- A Supernal Dispellation is cast at the Sworn Oaths spell itself, what happens ? Does the Clash of Wills take precedence or does the suppression effect of the dispellation act first ?

[Isator Levi]

I think subtle things like changing the subject, or messing with the spell factors should require co- operation

Changing a spell's subject strikes me as being far from subtle.

Conventional magic cannot alter the parameters of spells. It requires archmastery.

I think Nasnasi or Baalim powers can at least wield Paradox to force a spell to experience Dissonance, but that only ever breaks it down.

[orathaic]

Changing a spell's subject strikes me as being far from subtle.

Conventional magic cannot alter the parameters of spells. It requires archmastery.

I think Nasnasi or Baalim powers can at least wield Paradox to force a spell to experience Dissonance, but that only ever breaks it down.

Not after it is cast certainly.

So yeah, dissonance is after the fact, or equivalent to dispellation. My thoughts go back to somewhere around page 285 of this thread where someone pointed out how counterspelling is reactive, but if successful it only uses up both of your actions for the turn leaving nothing happen. Therefore paradox is more interesting narratively.

Adding paradox to their spell could force the spell to alter reach or change targets (but not in control of either player) or any other normal paradox effect controlled by the storyteller (or force a wisdom roll to take resistant damage into the caster's pattern).

And it seems to at least be on par with Compelling practice (which is the level of the counter spell attainment) in that pulling paradox into the world is one of the normal things that spells do. Therefore should be relatively easy (if you know how to do it, no doubt the Guardians would consider this knowledge rather dangerous).

Alternatively, it could force the caster to spend mana to mitigate (assuming this is allowed) possibly delaying the spell.

Which actually leads me to another question. Can a spell be countered at any point, if it takes a number of turns equal to the number of yantras being used and mana spending limits required to cast, is the Nimbus flaring for all of these turns and can you attempt to counter it each turn?

What about multiple attempts to counter it from different sources? Do they get any bonus?

And secondly, what about teamwork rituals, if someone wants to mess with your spell casting, can they intentionally fuck up, or attempt to alter the imago (change targets etc) when doing a ritual spell?

[orathaic]

Lets say a master of Fate casts Swearing an Oath on themselves with advanced duration (1 year) and advanced Potency. The oath is: "I will not allow any of my spells to be dispelled or countered without my consent, may fear visit me should I fail". So they would be Charmed while under its effect and hexed by the Spooked condition upon failing to uphold it.

This means any kind of counterspell or dispellation would automatically provoke a Clash of Wills.

No, my reading is that it would not offer a clash of wills, that would apply if someone we're to try to supernaturally compel you to break the Oath. Casting dispellation doesn't compel you.

If a supernatural power would force the subject to violate her oath — either by action or inaction — the mage may make a Clash of Wills against the effect

So if a mind spell attempted to force you to break your Oath you would cause a clash of will. Otherwise you are only failing to fulfill your Oath not being forced to.

There will is no clash of wills if you swear an Oath to protect your cabal and someone shoots one of them. You have failed, but you we're not forced to fail your Oath by someone. This is equivalent.

[KaiserAfini]

The key word I am focusing on is inaction. If the mage is unable to perceive the supernatural power or counter it, then the power is forcing them to break their oath and provokes a Clash of Wills.

If your spell is being countered, you cannot counter that since you already used your cast for the round. Therefore, it would cause a violation of the oath.

The main drawback is that a Clash of Wills is not as consistent as something like Wards & Signs, which adds to the Withstand (or generates it in cases where it normally wouldn't apply). With this method, you are relying on lucky rolls to protect your spells.

[KaiserAfini]

Not after it is cast certainly.

So yeah, dissonance is after the fact, or equivalent to dispellation. My thoughts go back to somewhere around page 285 of this thread where someone pointed out how counterspelling is reactive, but if successful it only uses up both of your actions for the turn leaving nothing happen. Therefore paradox is more interesting narratively.

Adding paradox to their spell could force the spell to alter reach or change targets (but not in control of either player) or any other normal paradox effect controlled by the storyteller (or force a wisdom roll to take resistant damage into the caster's pattern).

And it seems to at least be on par with Compelling practice (which is the level of the counter spell attainment) in that pulling paradox into the world is one of the normal things that spells do. Therefore should be relatively easy (if you know how to do it, no doubt the Guardians would consider this knowledge rather dangerous).

Alternatively, it could force the caster to spend mana to mitigate (assuming this is allowed) possibly delaying the spell.

Which actually leads me to another question. Can a spell be countered at any point, if it takes a number of turns equal to the number of yantras being used and mana spending limits required to cast, is the Nimbus flaring for all of these turns and can you attempt to counter it each turn?

What about multiple attempts to counter it from different sources? Do they get any bonus?

And secondly, what about teamwork rituals, if someone wants to mess with your spell casting, can they intentionally fuck up, or attempt to alter the imago (change targets etc) when doing a ritual spell?

The Paradox thing is part of Scelestus practices, expanded upon in Nameless & Accursed. The lowest levels involve Befouling, trying to direct where the Paradox will strike. As the mage joins more with the Abyss, they gain more perks, but lose some freedom with each step. Its also an addictive practice and generally considered a violation of the Lex Magicka. Anyone who progressed far enough to control the nature of the Paradox has reached the point where both the Pentacle and Seers will cooperate to annihilate them.

The only other way to alter another mage's spell is with archmastery, its normally far beyond the power of mages. The only "exception" are imbued items with flexible Reach, but those are built with more time and effort to accommodate that option. The nature of imbuements is different than conventional spells and is further explored in Signs of Sorcery.

A spell can be counterspelled at any point before the Imago is released. Regardless of casting time and yantras used, counterspell is an instant action.

Should a mage try to sabotage the team spellcast, it would impose a -3 penalty on all participants due to lack of cooperation.

[TempleBuilder]

Not after it is cast certainly.

So yeah, dissonance is after the fact, or equivalent to dispellation. My thoughts go back to somewhere around page 285 of this thread where someone pointed out how counterspelling is reactive, but if successful it only uses up both of your actions for the turn leaving nothing happen. Therefore paradox is more interesting narratively.

Adding paradox to their spell could force the spell to alter reach or change targets (but not in control of either player) or any other normal paradox effect controlled by the storyteller (or force a wisdom roll to take resistant damage into the caster's pattern).

And it seems to at least be on par with Compelling practice (which is the level of the counter spell attainment) in that pulling paradox into the world is one of the normal things that spells do. Therefore should be relatively easy (if you know how to do it, no doubt the Guardians would consider this knowledge rather dangerous).

The Abyss doesn’t fall under any of the arcanum. Manipulating paradox is the sole domain of the Scelesti, that’s literally what the Scelesti are. The powers of Scelesti don’t correspond to the practices, because the Abyss isn’t a arcanum.
Secondly, pulling paradox into the Fallen isn’t a natural thing that spells do. The Abyss is a layer of oil and pollution that sits between the the Supernal and the Fallen, and it wasn’t always there. The bigger, more complicated the spell, the more gunks gets stuck on the spell when it comes into the Fallen. Supernal Entities, who have a direct connection to the Supernal, don’t risk paradox. They have the closest thing to a natural spell that can be found in the Fallen.

Which actually leads me to another question. Can a spell be countered at any point, if it takes a number of turns equal to the number of yantras being used and mana spending limits required to cast, is the Nimbus flaring for all of these turns and can you attempt to counter it each turn?

Hmm, well the nimbus should be flaring, the Imago should be forming, and I don’t see a mention of having to wait until the spell fully forms to counter it. So I guess you can do it whenever. Nothing says you can’t try again, but I think there is a rule somewhere saying repeated attempts take a stacking -1 dice penalty on repeated actions.

What about multiple attempts to counter it from different sources? Do they get any bonus?

Other than being able to try? They could use teamwork, probably.

And secondly, what about teamwork rituals, if someone wants to mess with your spell casting, can they intentionally fuck up, or attempt to alter the imago (change targets etc) when doing a ritual spell?

Teamwork spell casting isn’t a equal partnership, someone has to take lead who also has the requirements to cast the spell. Teamwork spell casting merely uses another mage as a pseudo-yantra, kinda like willpower. Someone can refuse to play their part, but they can’t significantly change the Imago.

Edit: Grammar
Edit 2: Supernal Entities don’t have a direct connection to the Supernal, they are a piece of the Supernal pulled down to the Fallen world. Slight, but significant distinction.

[orathaic]

The key word I am focusing on is inaction. If the mage is unable to perceive the supernatural power or counter it, then the power is forcing them to break their oath and provokes a Clash of Wills.

If your spell is being countered, you cannot counter that since you already used your cast for the round. Therefore, it would cause a violation of the oath.

The main drawback is that a Clash of Wills is not as consistent as something like Wards & Signs, which adds to the Withstand (or generates it in cases where it normally wouldn't apply). With this method, you are relying on lucky rolls to protect your spells.

The benefit you gain from the Oath is the boon. Balanced by the hex if you break your Oath, whether by choice, inaction, or accident.

Now if a smart opponent comes along and thinks, i will make them break their Oath so they suffer the bad stuff, and uses some kind of supernatural power (eg Vampire Dominate discipline) to force you to break your Oath, the spell offers a clash of wills* to protect you from that power.

EDIT: for clarification, someone trying to dispel one of your spells doesn't force you to do or not do anything. It may result in your Oath being broken, that isn't the same as forcing you to break it (or allow it to be broken through forcing your inaction).

It doesn't give you a clash of wills for anything else. This is like if you have sworn to protect someone it would not give you a clash to prevent them from being shot (or having a supernatural effect harm them).

You have to fulfill your Oath all on your own, with only the advantage of the boon to help you.

*It is unclear to me that this clash of wills benefit from the strength/duration of the Oath spell. The supernatural effect does not directly break the spell - ie prevent the boon/hex, which is the primary effect of the spell... If it was a mind shield which prevented being forced to do something, definitely you would get a clash based on the strength of the spell.

[Isator Levi]

Yeah, a base principle of the setting's metaphysics would be that something like Paradox doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Arcana.

The key word I am focusing on is inaction.

But it's a word that's still in the context of power forcing a mage to do something contrary to the oath.

Like, the whole thing is predicated on an assumption that people are swearing to do things. I think any interpretation of how its clauses work need to emerge from that, not unusual edge cases.

You get to Clash Wills against powers that would compel you to the inaction of not trying to act against your spells being stopped or broken, nothing more.

[orathaic]

You get to Clash Wills against powers that would compel you to the inaction of not trying to act against your spells being stopped or broken, nothing more.

I would go even further - I'm not convinced the clash would he afforded the extra strength from the duration/potency. It is not directly opposing the spell, if you are forced to break your Oath the Hex still applies, so the spell is still in effect.

If you want a high potency protection against mind influence you would use a mind shield. The protections here are an incidental side effect.

[orathaic]

Yeah, a base principle of the setting's metaphysics would be that something like Paradox doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of the Arcana.

No, it is pure Gnosis which allows a mage to draw paradox from the Abyss, not any specific Arcana. The higher the Gnosis the more paradox.

EDIT: sorry i missed this

They have the closest thing to a natural spell that can be found in the Fallen.

That and legacy attainments which are actually a natural part of the fallen.

I think there is a rule somewhere saying repeated attempts take a stacking -1 dice penalty on repeated actions

That rule was definitely a thing, haven't seen it in this edition**. Also in combat i think if you miss a target and try to hit them again you don't suffer from the -1 for repeated actions.

Not sure that is applicable here. But it seems relevant.

Teamwork spell casting merely uses another mage as a pseudo-yantra, kinda like willpower. Someone can refuse to play their part, but they can’t significantly change the Imago

That makes sense, i feel like they are doing more than being a pseudo yantra though. Sure, if they are a sleepwalker and are just going about the some ritual actions yes, that is all they are doing. But if they are a mage at all they are rolling their Gnosis + Arcana and doing spell casting (somehow helping with the imago formation) maybe a big complex spell can be divided up into parts which each helper is casting, and then the primary caster is using those partial imagos to make it easier to create the imago for the complete spell. Unlike a Yantra they can fail in their spell casting roll.

Also:

Each participant must roll for Paradox separately; if any one of the casters releases a Paradox instead of containing it, it affects the entire spell.

They can release paradox into the spell... Which kinda brings me back to my original question

So only acting like a Yantra in the sense that a Yantra makes it easier to form an imago.

Unfortunately this method of poluting a spell with paradox can only he done by having the spellcaster intentionally include the help.

It can't be done either at instant time or without the spellcaster's cooperation. Though it does allow some amount of sabotage by the team mates.

EDIT: i am going to assume a Scelesti can befoul their teamwork roll to intentionally draw down paradox, if you have accidentally included them.

EDIT2: actually looking at the teamwork rules on page 214, if you fail a roll you get to make it a dramatic failure. And this gives the primary caster a -4 dice pool pentaly. If you can't cast the spell and are on a chance die (Gnosis -3) can you be more of a detriment than any help...

**I'm wrong it is above the section on teamwork of 214. Not sure it applies to combat rolls though. You could argue that you're not trying to do the exact same thing, or that the fight is all effectively an extended contested action. Not repeating the exact same thing over and over.

[Satchel]

No, it is pure Gnosis which allows a mage to draw paradox from the Abyss, not any specific Arcana. The higher the Gnosis the more paradox.

And it is a consistent element of Paradox that, unless you are a Scelestus of sufficient initiation, you can't control how it manifests or directly inflict it on other people — the entire point of the Abyss dangling power over Paradox in front of its servants is that it leads to them trapping themselves in a world where they can't affect anything outside of the corrupted Mage Sight-induced nightmares that have replaced their reality.

Higher Gnosis doesn't give you root access to another mage's expression of enlightened Will, and spells are discrete objects that don't positively or laterally alter their own parameters without a Quintessence going into their creation. If you want to mess with how a wizard's spells manifest, you mess with the wizard casting the spell to trick them into casting them that way.

[21C Hermit]

Supernal Beings are supposed to have Banes in the Mage 2E core. The Black Angels in SoS don't. Which would be the RAW in this case?