Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[orathaic]

It's very easy to bottle a ghost - you use Death to force them into the Fetter Manifestation.

This got me thinking.

Can you fetter multiple ephemeral entities to the same subject? For example, fettering the ghosts of a mass murderer's victims to their killer?

Same with possession? Can multiple entities possess the same target? For example a spirit and a ghost possessing the one body? Would they have to take turn? Wrest control from each other? Or can you push a possessing ghost out of a body by putting a spirit in?

And a last question, the familiar merit says your spirit/ghost/goetia may be fettered. So you can have a cat spirit familiar and fetter it to an actual cat. How little use would this be? Does a cat with the urged condition do much? Or does it do whatever catly things it would have done anyway but with the urging to point it in a particular direction?

[orathaic]

On hiding/protecting a spell.

If you veil a spell (prime 2) and then try to shield it (also prime 2) does your shielding have to overcome the vieling Clash of Wills?

And vica versa, if you shield it first, and then try to veil it, does the spell withstand being affected, right 'When the subject is the target of a spell, that spell is Withstood with the Potency of Wards and Signs.'?

(Referring to Supernal Veil and Wards and Signs)

And secondly, would you need to add subject to the veiling spell to hide both the Wards and Signs and the actual target spell you are protecting?

Or would it make a difference if the Wards and original spell were cast as a combined spell* (actually perhaps you can't cast Wards and Signs as a combined spell on a target of the spell you are combining it with?)


And lastly, would an area dispellation bypass the veiling entirely and dispell all valid spells in the area if possible?

*Actually would this be the perfect choice for a combined spell, Veil and Shield the same target at the same time so neither spell is blocking the other?

[KaiserAfini]

You would have to deal with a Clash of Wills to detect it via Unveiling, but winning would allow you to cast the Shielding with no further complications. The key is that Clashes of Wills occur when effects are acting at cross purposes. Another noteworthy detail is that the caster can choose to lose the Clash against the effect, so long as they still retain spell control. When the effect is relinquished, its treated as Clashing with a another caster, one that has the Gnosis + Arcanum pool of the mage at the time of casting.

In the case of Wards and Signs, casting a Veiling after it would require it to either have enough Potency to power through or for the spell to be an exceptional success and the caster to choose to bypass Withstand.

Should they be a combined spell, they are built specifically to work alongside one another, bypassing the problem entirely and Veiling the Wards and Signs at the same time

Regarding dispellation, it would allow all effects to be bypassed and dispelled. However, the most widely encompassing option is Supernal Dispellation, which requires 2 Reach to permanently dispel rather than suppress the effects. That means that even a master would have to either cast with instant use and advanced duration, using yantras to adjust for the greatest cost benefit. A permanent solution would require ritual time (unless they can use Time In a Bottle) and additional work to get the AoE to the correct size, which means hoping that they will have enough time to do so or using either Stored Spell (Signs of Sorcery page 70) or Hung Spell (core book page 187) to setup beforehand. However, this would require more mana and spell control. Alternatively, they could use Dispel Magic, which grants a lot more free Reach, but requires the mage to hopefully have all the Arcana involved.

[TempleBuilder]

This got me thinking.

Can you fetter multiple ephemeral entities to the same subject? For example, fettering the ghosts of a mass murderer's victims to their killer?

Yes. Spirits and Ghosts probably wouldn’t do this normally, but it does happen.

Same with possession? Can multiple entities possess the same target? For example a spirit and a ghost possessing the one body? Would they have to take turn? Wrest control from each other? Or can you push a possessing ghost out of a body by putting a spirit in?

Yes, but again, Spirits and Ghosts probably wouldn’t do this naturally. Again, it probably still happens. Wrest control, I should think, but I don’t think there is a official ruling. After all, Hive-Claimed apparently naturally exist according to Werewolf. Plus there is Spiral. She is a Rapt who among other things forced multitudes of Spirits to claim her, while she maintains control.

And a last question, the familiar merit says your spirit/ghost/goetia may be fettered. So you can have a cat spirit familiar and fetter it to an actual cat. How little use would this be? Does a cat with the urged condition do much? Or does it do whatever catly things it would have done anyway but with the urging to point it in a particular direction?

It’s still a cat. It does what it wants. Occasionally, it might listen to the spirit, probably not the majority of the time, even when urged. At least, all the cats I’ve met would never actually obey something willingly. Unless it suits them, of course.

[Tessie]

(and rotes can't be cast without using their Mudras)

This is not true. You may use the Mudra as a Yantra when casting a Rote from memory, but you are not required to do so. Additionally, you're unable to use Mudras for Rotes you cast from Grimoires instead of from memory, since you haven't learned the mnemonics.

[Isator Levi]

This is not true. You may use the Mudra as a Yantra when casting a Rote from memory, but you are not required to do so.

If the mudras are the mnemonic techniques that allow the rote to be cast in a memorized form rather than read from a grimoire in the first place, how can it be possible to cast them without making use of the mnemonic?

[Tessie]

If the mudras are the mnemonic techniques that allow the rote to be cast in a memorized form rather than read from a grimoire in the first place, how can it be possible to cast them without making use of the mnemonic?

The thing is, Mudras aren't mnemonic techniques that allow the Rote to be cast from memory.

"When casting a Rote from memory, using an Order’s recall techniques, the character may use dots in the associated Skill as a Yantra. The character must be free to make the mnemonic gestures to recall the Rote in order to benefit from the Skill bonus."

The Mudra is a mnemonic technique that makes it easier to cast Rotes from memory, but having learnt the Rote is enough to just cast it.
Having Mudras both be a requirement and add a bonus would be a weird case of double dipping where you're not considered skilled enough to cast it as a Rote instead of an improvised spell without the mnemonic, but better at casting it as a Rote with the mnemonic than when casting it as an improvised spell.

[orathaic]

additional work to get the AoE to the correct size

That raises a question, assuming i have a Nth scale area of effect spell (let's say it turns people into frogs) and someone casts and N-1th scale dispellation (whether Dispell magic or Supernal dispellation) would the spell be partially suppressed in the area of the dispellation (assuming potency exceeded the withstand) or would it be an all or nothing?

Similarly if you cast a Nth scale area of effect dispellation, but only partially overlap the Nth scale Area of Frogs, does it fail (as the whole spell isn't inside the area?) - requiring N+1th scale area of effect to ensure you cover the whole thing?

Should they be a combined spell, they are built specifically to work alongside one another, bypassing the problem entirely and Veiling the Wards and Signs at the same time

Is there something where it says a veiling spell is itself hidden from the purview that it is veiling/trigger peripheral mage sight - such that Supernal Veil doesn't need to be veiled from Prime (looking at page 123, i can't see it), but i am presuming this is the same?

I like the autofail for the clash of wills. Does a mage consciously know what is being clashes with (in case they have multiple spells up)?

[orathaic]

Yes. Spirits and Ghosts probably wouldn’t do this normally, but it does happen.

I am not assuming it is normal, hence my presumption that a mage could make it happen - perhaps as a punishment in the serial killer example

Yes, but again, Spirits and Ghosts probably wouldn’t do this naturally. Again, it probably still happens. Wrest control, I should think, but I don’t think there is a official ruling. After all, Hive-Claimed apparently naturally exist according to Werewolf. Plus there is Spiral. She is a Rapt who among other things forced multitudes of Spirits to claim her, while she maintains control.

I am going to presume that they either existed as a hive entity before claiming, or collectively agreed to claim the subject together.

If it is wresting control, you could summon a ghost (or ask your familiar) to possess someone who has a harmful spirit possessing them... At least as a temporary stopgap measure (possibly with one running out of essence before the other?)

It’s still a cat. It does what it wants. Occasionally, it might listen to the spirit, probably not the majority of the time, even when urged. At least, all the cats I’ve met would never actually obey something willingly. Unless it suits them, of course.

I do know of people who have trained their cats. How effective this is i couldn't tell you. But in general, having a cat with a cat spirit familiar fettered to it seems less than helpful... You could perhaps use the animal minion spell, and use the spirit's sensory input but otherwise it seems rather lackluster.

[KaiserAfini]

Can the Shattered Time environmental tilt (Dark Eras page 46) be created via an Unraveling of Time ? The effect itself is interesting, but it seems like it increases the Paradox dice pool, which makes me wonder if its even possible via Supernal magic.

[TempleBuilder]

I am not assuming it is normal, hence my presumption that a mage could make it happen - perhaps as a punishment in the serial killer example

My point was that this is something that can happen without a mage, so it it doesn’t conflict with a Mage being able to cause it. I intended no assumption into your idea of normalcy, since I have no way to know that.

I am going to presume that they either existed as a hive entity before claiming, or collectively agreed to claim the subject together.

Maybe, all the sidebar says is that these things also exist naturally.

If it is wresting control, you could summon a ghost (or ask your familiar) to possess someone who has a harmful spirit possessing them... At least as a temporary stopgap measure (possibly with one running out of essence before the other?)

it’s not a great plan, but it should work.

I do know of people who have trained their cats. How effective this is i couldn't tell you. But in general, having a cat with a cat spirit familiar fettered to it seems less than helpful... You could perhaps use the animal minion spell, and use the spirit's sensory input but otherwise it seems rather lackluster.

Well, you have a spirit that isn’t leaking essence, that should be gaining lots of essence, and presumably has influence: cats. The sprit can really buff the cat and everything it does, and can talk to you. People don’t really stop talking about stuff just because a cat is nearby, so you have nice little spy. That’s not nothing.

[Isator Levi]

Having Mudras both be a requirement and add a bonus would be a weird case of double dipping where you're not considered skilled enough to cast it as a Rote instead of an improvised spell without the mnemonic, but better at casting it as a Rote with the mnemonic than when casting it as an improvised spell.

My response to that would be the idea that the Skill bonus is part of what makes a rote distinct from an improvised spell in the first place, and part of its value. Sure, even without that, you'd still have the benefits of extra Reach and not leaving your Signature. But I still think it's part of the definition and the value.

However, I'll admit that my reading is prejudiced by certain things informed by First Edition. In that game, rotes definitely needed the mudra to cast, innately used Skills in the casting pool, and were... kind of lame. My reading is based both on a perspective of "this is how they were possible to cast" and "I want their profile to be upped as much as possible", with the latter being counterbalanced a bit by requiring the mudra in all instances. Honestly, I kind of think even the extra Reach is good enough to make it necessary to use the mudra.

In any event, we could agree that mudras as an Action Yantra are at least exceptional in being reserved for rotes.

[21C Hermit]

Can the Shattered Time environmental tilt (Dark Eras page 46) be created via an Unraveling of Time ? The effect itself is interesting, but it seems like it increases the Paradox dice pool, which makes me wonder if its even possible via Supernal magic.

It does look too ‘big’ to be just an Unraveling. Maaaaybe Unmaking. Or even some melange of Unmaking and Making. Either way, I’d rather let that be an Artifact’s power rather than a standard spell.

[Cauthon]

I'm trying to find a distinction between an Imbued Item and an Enhanced Item. Can an Enhanced Item provide its "enhancement" to its wearer? For example, would an amulet with Gain Skill cast on it cause whomever is wearing it to be under said spell effect?

I'm asking because I like the idea of a skill-monkey character who is constantly juggling a library of skill-amulets, and have to figure out if they'd be constantly casting on themselves or just swapping out their wardrobe

[orathaic]

I'm trying to find a distinction between an Imbued Item and an Enhanced Item. Can an Enhanced Item provide its "enhancement" to its wearer? For example, would an amulet with Gain Skill cast on it cause whomever is wearing it to be under said spell effect?

I'm asking because I like the idea of a skill-monkey character who is constantly juggling a library of skill-amulets, and have to figure out if they'd be constantly casting on themselves or just swapping out their wardrobe

In 1e it was a clear distinction, the enhanced item had better durability/equipment bonus/similar. It was a strict limit of 3 or 4 matter spells which enhanced the item.

In 2e this goes further, you could cast Veil of Moments (Time 2 sheilding) and enhance the item by prevent the normal ageing which occurs with time (is rusting/ normal wear and tear) or Ephemeral Enchantment (Prime 3 Weaving) to make it interact with ghosts, spirits and goetia. Any spell which enhanced the item itself.

Enhance Skill doesn't do anything to an item as they don't have a skill rating, so that would be imbuing the item with a spell to cast on other subjects.