Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[KaiserAfini]

I'm trying to find a distinction between an Imbued Item and an Enhanced Item. Can an Enhanced Item provide its "enhancement" to its wearer? For example, would an amulet with Gain Skill cast on it cause whomever is wearing it to be under said spell effect?

Yes, by using Weaving to enchant the item with the effect.

Regarding the distinction, enhanced items have been modified by spells. They do not cast spells, but are merely modified by spells actively affecting them. They cannot be turned off, they are constantly active and only affect themselves (like Wonderful Machine) or the users (like Monkey's Paw). So while you can make an item that makes someone have higher perception or a backpack that holds more items, you cannot make a lighter that casts fireballs or mind reading glasses.

Imbued items are ones that had an Imago imprinted into their very nature. This allows users to cast using them and expending mana, in some cases even modify the Reach (if the crafter made them thus). Casting from an imbued item only takes one spell slot, no matter how many targets are affected.

[orathaic]

My point was that this is something that can happen without a mage, so it it doesn’t conflict with a Mage being able to cause it. I intended no assumption into your idea of normalcy, since I have no way to know that.

Maybe, all the sidebar says is that these things also exist naturally.

Ok, thanks i think i understand better now.

it’s not a great plan, but it should work.

It might be your only option (eg if a ghost/spirit is possessing someone and you don't have access to Death/Spirit respectively, but have enough Mind to summon a powerful goetia...) And if you have an entity of high enough Rank (maybe 2 higher than currently possessing the subject) it should be able to take over, i think.

Well, you have a spirit that isn’t leaking essence, that should be gaining lots of essence, and presumably has influence: cats. The sprit can really buff the cat and everything it does, and can talk to you. People don’t really stop talking about stuff just because a cat is nearby, so you have nice little spy. That’s not nothing.

I guess i was comparing it to an unfettered familiar, which also isn't leaking essence, and can better spy by not being stuck to a cat. But your other points are well taken.

[Cauthon]

So it sounds like there's some disagreement then - KaiserAfini implied that Enhanced items can affect their wearer, but orathaic emphatically stated that in 2e the spell only affects the item.

To clarify, I understand the broad strokes difference between Enhanced and Imbued in 2e, but am trying to figure out if a skill monkey character would need to have a bunch of Imbued items they need to keep activating at regular intervals, or a bunch of wardrobe accessories that they throw on as needed.

[KaiserAfini]

It does look too ‘big’ to be just an Unraveling. Maaaaybe Unmaking. Or even some melange of Unmaking and Making. Either way, I’d rather let that be an Artifact’s power rather than a standard spell.

I think Unmaking would make events have jumpcuts, whereas this sounds like Unraveling inflicting severe damage to the forces of the Arcanum. I was thinking that conjunctionally applying Fate 4 could allow elements of Chaos Mastery to be mixed in, allowing it to be broken in more directed ways. Think of it as something similar to how safety equipment is designed to break in very specific ways.

[orathaic]

So it sounds like there's some disagreement then - KaiserAfini implied that Enhanced items can affect their wearer, but orathaic emphatically stated that in 2e the spell only affects the item.

To clarify, I understand the broad strokes difference between Enhanced and Imbued in 2e, but am trying to figure out if a skill monkey character would need to have a bunch of Imbued items they need to keep activating at regular intervals, or a bunch of wardrobe accessories that they throw on as needed.

If it has a persistent imbued effect which targets the user, that is an imbued item. If it is a pair of binocculars which has a extremely good equipment bonus benefiting anyone who uses it, then it is an enhanced item...

I'm not sure if KaiserAfini disagrees with this.

EDIT: so, both should be your answer. If you want an item which enhanced the user's skill rating, then Imbuing the item makes sense. Let's say a necklace which was imbued to enhance the wearer's weaponry. You could then use the enhanced weaponry with any relevant weapon.

Alternatively a sword with a larger damage bonus/lower weight etc. Would be an enhanced item.

[Cauthon]

I may have just misunderstood them then. Either way, sounds like my hypothetical skill-monkey would need to be continually activating items. Heavy investment in mana-batteries it is!

[orathaic]

I may have just misunderstood them then. Either way, sounds like my hypothetical skill-monkey would need to be continually activating items. Heavy investment in mana-batteries it is!

Cauthon i think some imbued items don't need activating. They can be persistent, always on. So shouldn't need mana to activate each time.

It is unclear if this means that whoever is wearing them at a given time becomes the subject of the effect (as that would be changing the Spell's subject...) But i think it is designed to work like that (and is similar to area of effect spells which affect anyone entering the area - or this would affect anyone who comes into touch range).

But to avoid potential side effect of anyone being able to pick up the item and gain the benefit, i think that an activation roll/known (secret) trigger - along with the use of mana - is what you need.

That said, you don't necessarily need seperate mana batteries as the imbued item(s) can have mana slots of its own to spend on its effect.

[orathaic]

01-27-2019, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
The big advantage is that your Oneiros guarantees it will be bug free forever.
This is not the case.

Although it utilizes the same systems, it has been clarified by the Dev that relinquished spells going haywire is not Paradox

So, this seems like the closest mages have to Dynamics without Archmastery. The Mysterium specifically like the idea of magic as being alive, so i can see one of them wanting to study the effects of a wild spell which mutated... What sort of spells seem likely to give the most interesting effects? Fate perhaps?

[Cauthon]

The Imbued Item entry on 2e Mage's core book (page 102, I think) is pretty explicit that you're spending at least one point of mana to activate the spell, so you'll need to recast at least as often as the duration. I honestly read it kind of like a DnD Wand/Stave, or a Wheel of Time Ter'angreal - the item has one trick that any user can activate, so long as they pay the cost. That's also where I've been assuming the main use-distinction (as opposed to the crafting-distinction) is between Enhanced and Imbued is - Enhanced is permanent and self-contained, while effects generated by Imbued are temporary but flexible in their parameters.

And while you can indeed have a pretty decently-sized mana reservoirs build into the item, you can get some pretty good milage out of multiple Indefinite castings Mana Battery on an item. Makes it easier to steal, true, but it means you can use it on more things.

[KaiserAfini]

I remember asking about making items that enhanced users on this thread, wish I remembered a bit of the wording so I could find the reference.

But in essence, every Path has a way to get mana at high tiers. With Prime you just win, since you can make and enhance Hallows. Resource intensive and time consuming, but has great gains too.

Death, Mind and Spirit mages can use familiars, then generate Essence and instantly convert it to mana via the link. With a Perfecting spell, they could arguably even make the transfer more efficient.

Fate is the easiest, just use Miracle to get a full mana reimbursement via exceptional successes. All the mana used on Attainments, Paradox mitigation and all other spell costs can just be recovered. With Time, using Temporal Pocket plus Veil of Moments with Reach effects lets you pattern scour and fully recover in the blink of an eye (plus get fully healed by chaining pattern restorations).

[KaiserAfini]

The Imbued Item entry on 2e Mage's core book (page 102, I think) is pretty explicit that you're spending at least one point of mana to activate the spell, so you'll need to recast at least as often as the duration. I honestly read it kind of like a DnD Wand/Stave, or a Wheel of Time Ter'angreal - the item has one trick that any user can activate, so long as they pay the cost. That's also where I've been assuming the main use-distinction (as opposed to the crafting-distinction) is between Enhanced and Imbued is - Enhanced is permanent and self-contained, while effects generated by Imbued are temporary but flexible in their parameters.

And while you can indeed have a pretty decently-sized mana reservoirs build into the item, you can get some pretty good milage out of multiple Indefinite castings Mana Battery on an item. Makes it easier to steal, true, but it means you can use it on more things.

It all depends on who you know. Have a master of Time make an enhanced item that grants a variation of Blink of an Eye that lets you change and reload equipment instantly. Then have a disciple of Space make a bag of holding.

Now you can prepare a plethora of enchanted items and switch from Sleeper clothes to the optimal gear in literally no time at all. Its a lot less mana intensive than imbued items.

[TempleBuilder]

So, this seems like the closest mages have to Dynamics without Archmastery. The Mysterium specifically like the idea of magic as being alive, so i can see one of them wanting to study the effects of a wild spell which mutated... What sort of spells seem likely to give the most interesting effects? Fate perhaps?

Seems like anything that you fancy, personally Prime is mine for the least likely to accidentally cause nightmare fuel to making cool new stuff. ( Prime totally can cause nightmare fuel, but it has to work harder than…let’s say Life to be horrific) If you don’t mind nightmare fuel, then Life + whatever is likely to make very fascinating results. And probably kill or whatever the spell was on, or make it wish it had died, but that’s just details.

Edit: so if spells going haywire isn’t caused by paradox, can they create Abyssal Environmental Tilts, or summon a Abyssal Entity?

[KaiserAfini]

Seems like anything that you fancy, personally Prime is mine for the least likely to accidentally cause nightmare fuel to making cool new stuff. ( Prime totally can cause nightmare fuel, but it has to work harder than…let’s say Life to be horrific) If you don’t mind nightmare fuel, then Life + whatever is likely to make very fascinating results. And probably kill or whatever the spell was on, or make it wish it had died, but that’s just details.

Edit: so if spells going haywire isn’t caused by paradox, can they create Abyssal Environmental Tilts, or summon a Abyssal Entity?

I would like to suggest one source of Prime based nightmare fuel. Have you ever played Baten Kaitos: Origins ? There is this one village that has their essence consumed. They are visible as silhouettes going about their everyday life, heedless that the day has changed, just repeating it over and over.

Eternally trapped in a Sysphian task, visible as naught but echoes in all layers of Twilight, unable to even acknowledge the new reality of their lives, supernaturally perceptible in all lens but hollowed out of all truth. That is one thing an Unmaking of Prime can do.

I always thought it would be fun to make this into a plot hook. Like make this be the fate of Roanoke, creating this eerily all present city of oblivious people that only Sleepers cannot perceive (probably the result of a major conflict with the Paternoster).

[Cauthon]

It all depends on who you know. Have a master of Time make an enhanced item that grants a variation of Blink of an Eye that lets you change and reload equipment instantly. Then have a disciple of Space make a bag of holding.

Now you can prepare a plethora of enchanted items and switch from Sleeper clothes to the optimal gear in literally no time at all. Its a lot less mana intensive than imbued items.

Exasperated Exarchs, it's Superman's phone-booth trick!

Edit: for pedantry's sake, the Blink of and Eye item would still have to be Imbued, since it's an activated effect that causes a given roll to be performed in a much shorter time frame. Still a great way to play an infiltrator or spy though. Or a Magical Girl

[KaiserAfini]

Exasperated Exarchs, it's Superman's phone-booth trick!

I have been caught, that is exactly what inspired it. A simple trick, but potentially very useful. I will probably post it in Creative Thaumaturgy in a bit.