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  • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
    I seem to remember there being some kind of benefit for Clashes of Wills originating from a Legacy Attainment, but I can’t seem to find it. Am I misremembering something?
    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    I believe its based on the Automatic Activation subsection on page 198, which then lead to the way the Eleventh Question's first optional Attainment pierces concealment (page 201)
    ​Automatic successes on activation rolls doesn't affect Clash of Wills. They are rolled normally. This is something the community has repeatedly gotten wrong.


    Bloodline: The Stygians
    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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    • Originally posted by Tessie View Post



      ​Automatic successes on activation rolls doesn't affect Clash of Wills. They are rolled normally. This is something the community has repeatedly gotten wrong.
      So, when it says “…Active Mage Sight (Matter) upon arrival. If it must pierce any form of supernatural concealment, it automatically scores successes equal to the mage’s Matter dots.”, it isn’t referring to the Clash of Wills, or isn’t a precedent for Automatic successes applying to the Clash of Wills?


      To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

      So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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      • Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
        So, when it says “…Active Mage Sight (Matter) upon arrival. If it must pierce any form of supernatural concealment, it automatically scores successes equal to the mage’s Matter dots.”, it isn’t referring to the Clash of Wills, or isn’t a precedent for Automatic successes applying to the Clash of Wills?
        The Eleventh Question’s Attainment? It seems ‘automatic Clash’ there is the Attainment’s (Optional) effect, since the Option doesn’t do anything else otherwise.


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        • I can't tell you why it breaks the rules (alternatively, why it nonsensically would reference activation successes for Mage Sight that is normally never rolled), nor can I tell you why activating Mage Sight is deemed worthy of being an Attainment, but I can link the dev clarification regarding Legacy Attainment CoWs.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • …well, guess that definitively answers that.


            To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

            So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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            • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              Tl;dr the vast majority of spells will succeed, either because they're simply not Withstood or because it's very easy to just compensate if needed. The only spell I remember casting that failed because of spell factors was when I failed to take Size into account
              Speaking of size. Is there any concensus on how Mind affect large animals/monsters?

              Eg: a size 7 horse, does it require extra scale for large target? Does Life and Mind treat it differently?

              Likewise, do Zombies, Golems, Eidolons and similar have no mind (without the addition of a mind 5 conjunctional effect) and are thus impervious to Mind effects (with the possible except of possession)?
              Last edited by orathaic; 01-25-2022, 02:01 PM.

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              • Originally posted by orathaic View Post

                Speaking of size. Is there any concensus on how Mind affect large animals/monsters?
                Yes. If it has a mind, Mind works on it. You can use Mind on dogs, elephant and claimed houses all the same. Well, except for scale.

                Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                Eg: a size 7 horse, does it require extra scale for large target? Does Life and Mind treat it differently?
                Yes. Other than affecting the body or the mind, no.

                Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                Likewise, do Zombies, Golems, Eidolons and similar have no mind (without the addition of a mind 5 conjunctional effect) and are thus impervious to Mind effects (with the possible except of possession)?
                Yep, no mind, nothing to affect. You can cast the spell mind you, it just won’t do anything.

                Edit: Giving it a mind with Making is another example of something it’s not impervious to. Possession works fine, since you are just moving the vessel you mind is in. You can possess a rock if you want.
                Last edited by TempleBuilder; 01-25-2022, 02:12 PM.


                To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

                So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  Speaking of size. Is there any concensus on how Mind affect large animals/monsters?

                  Eg: a size 7 horse, does it require extra scale for large target? Does Life and Mind treat it differently?
                  If a spell is cast on a subject, it needs to have enough Scale factor steps to accomodate for the subject's Size.

                  Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                  Likewise, do Zombies, Golems, Eidolons and similar have no mind (without the addition of a mind 5 conjunctional effect) and are thus impervious to Mind effects (with the possible except of possession)?
                  In general, nothing has an outright immunity to any single Arcanum. It's all about the specific spell effects. Most Mind spells won't have any effect at all on those as long as they don't have any minds, but some Mind spells doesn't affect the subject's mind and can affect those just as well as a human subject.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • How does spellcasting account for targeted attacks ? Should a target be so big that you can only reasonably make a quick attack on its leg or when trying to snipe the wings of a flying being, if both cases use sensory range, does that impose a specified target penalty ? Does a similar penalty apply only when trying to hit with an aimed spell ? Similarly, if only part of a giant target is hit by an area of effect, are only those specific limbs attacked or is the subject entirely unaffected ?


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                    • Originally posted by Tessie View Post


                      If a spell is cast on a subject, it needs to have enough Scale factor steps to accomodate for the subject's Size.
                      I don't think that is in question. The only question is what size is the subject's mind.

                      Eg: does an elephant have an elephant sized mind?​

                      In general, nothing has an outright immunity to any single Arcanum. It's all about the specific spell effects. Most Mind spells won't have any effect at all on those as long as they don't have any minds, but some Mind spells doesn't affect the subject's mind and can affect those just as well as a human subject.
                      Can you give an example?

                      Like take Psychic assault "A living mind is a delicate thing, easily broken... The subject takes bashing damage equal to Potency."

                      As read, the Elephant Zombie with no mind, as a subject of this spell requires Scale and takes bashing damage. Or their mind is the Subject, in which case it has none and can't be affected, (or perhaps with conjunctional mind/ghost possession - it has a kind but it is this ghost/goetia which is the subject* and it doesn't necessarily have the scale of an elephant?)

                      Alternatively, Can you cast grant skill on a Golem to give them new "fields"? I can't think of any other listed Mind spell which you could use on a mindless Zombie...

                      *This seems like a distinct case, where the possessing ephemeral entity has their own health track. Right?

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                      • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                        How does spellcasting account for targeted attacks ? Should a target be so big that you can only reasonably make a quick attack on its leg or when trying to snipe the wings of a flying being, if both cases use sensory range, does that impose a specified target penalty ? Does a similar penalty apply only when trying to hit with an aimed spell ?
                        There is no reason to ever do a targeted attack with aimed spells. If the spell hits, it affects the subject. An aimed spell hitting the subject's arm would still inflict a Leg Wrack if that's the effect of the spell.
                        Targeted sensory range spells doesn't make any sense.

                        Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                        Similarly, if only part of a giant target is hit by an area of effect, are only those specific limbs attacked or is the subject entirely unaffected ?
                        Book doesn't say how to handle subjects that are both inside and outside an AoE. But for subjects that are so large that you can't cover them with an AoE, they'd absolutely not be valid subjects since they obviously outclass the Scale factor. (Spells like "fill this AoE with fire" still fills the area with fire which may affect anyone who's wholly or partly within the area.)


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                          How does spellcasting account for targeted attacks ? Should a target be so big that you can only reasonably make a quick attack on its leg or when trying to snipe the wings of a flying being, if both cases use sensory range, does that impose a specified target penalty ? Does a similar penalty apply only when trying to hit with an aimed spell ? Similarly, if only part of a giant target is hit by an area of effect, are only those specific limbs attacked or is the subject entirely unaffected ?
                          Is the targeted body part its own supernal symbol which can be used to target that precise thing?

                          Like does a 'wing' have a meaning which allows it to be targeted by a spell?

                          Are there any spells which use part of a target as the subject?

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                          • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                            Book doesn't say how to handle subjects that are both inside and outside an AoE. But for subjects that are so large that you can't cover them with an AoE, they'd absolutely not be valid subjects since they obviously outclass the Scale factor. (Spells like "fill this AoE with fire" still fills the area with fire which may affect anyone who's wholly or partly within the area.)
                            Does this answer my question from a few pages back on AOE dispellation? If you only partially cover the area of a targeted spell does it do nothing (rather than suppressing part of the spell in the area targeted)?

                            EDIT: i realise i am assuming here that area of effect spells have a scale factor which dispellation needs to overcome to affect. Or alternatively this could only apply to AoE dispellation, and a targeted spell would be able to dispell without accounting for scale...
                            Last edited by orathaic; 01-25-2022, 03:20 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                              The only question is what size is the subject's mind.
                              There's the thing. The Size of the subject's mind doesn't matter. The Size of the subject does.

                              If the mind was the subject, then you could never affect the mind with touch range or sensory range spells without somehow boosting yourself (by, say, using Mind Sight) because normally it's 100% impossible to directly touch or perceive someone's mind.

                              Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                              Can you give an example?
                              I can give you three:
                              Knowing/Veiling will easily tell you that the subject has no mind.
                              Incognito Presence will hide the subject from other minds.
                              Mental Shield will protect the subject from Goetia and Mind spells.

                              Edit:
                              A fourth example that requires the subject to not have a mind: A Making spell that grants the subject a mind.
                              Last edited by Tessie; 01-25-2022, 03:21 PM.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                              • Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                                If the mind was the subject, then you could never affect the mind with touch range or sensory range spells without somehow boosting yourself (by, say, using Mind Sight) because normally it's 100% impossible to directly touch or perceive someone's mind.
                                Well, no. You don't need to directly touch things, you can extend your touch with a weapon, for example, and you still count as effectively connecting for the purpose of casting a touch spell.

                                Likewise touch the body, and their mind is connected to it.

                                I can give you three:
                                Knowing/Veiling will easily tell you that the subject has no mind.
                                Incognito Presence will hide the subject from other minds.
                                Mental Shield will protect the subject from Goetia and Mind spells.
                                Thank you.

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