Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[TempleBuilder]

Eg: does an elephant have an elephant sized mind?

Yes.

Can you give an example?

Like take Psychic assault "A living mind is a delicate thing, easily broken... The subject takes bashing damage equal to Potency."

As read, the Elephant Zombie with no mind, as a subject of this spell requires Scale and takes bashing damage. Or their mind is the Subject, in which case it has none and can't be affected, (or perhaps with conjunctional mind/ghost possession - it has a kind but it is this ghost/goetia which is the subject* and it doesn't necessarily have the scale of an elephant?)

Alternatively, Can you cast grant skill on a Golem to give them new "fields"? I can't think of any other listed Mind spell which you could use on a mindless Zombie...

Grant them a Mind? Bury memories in them? Make them invisible to everything with a Mind? Possess them?

*This seems like a distinct case, where the possessing ephemeral entity has their own health track. Right?

With possession, sure. That’s explicitly how it works. If the possessing entity has a different size, then it requires a different scale.

[TempleBuilder]

Is the targeted body part its own supernal symbol which can be used to target that precise thing?

…No? Depends on what you mean. You have to target the whole subject. Now you can mess with specific things after you do that. If you want to give someone a unusual eye color, you need to target the whole person, not the eye. Unless the eye is separated from the body, I guess.

[orathaic]

…No? Depends on what you mean. You have to target the whole subject. Now you can mess with specific things after you do that. If you want to give someone a unusual eye color, you need to target the whole person, not the eye. Unless the eye is separated from the body, I guess.

You are going to make me come up with metaphysics to make this the case, aren't you?

So if it is connected, (ie a connected sympathic link in the physical sense) then it is one subject. Presumably then a person and all their clothes/items they are carrying are one subject - for the purposes of scale - and while a life spell will not affect their clothes, and matter spell will, all with them as the subject? (ie the abstraction we use playing the game corresponds to the 'supernal symbology' relevant for the imago?)

EDIT: actually this seems fine, until i consider something like a building, it would mean i can't target the windows without taking into account the entire scale of the building... Which is counter intuitive.

[TempleBuilder]

So, I checked and I don’t think the Core rule book ever defines subject, which makes this difficult. My quick fix would be to ask if breaking the thing will reduce the Health/Structure of the thing, if so they are part of the subject. If not, then they are not part of the thing. Usually, breaking a window doesn’t really affect the overall structure of a building. Secondly, I don’t know how spells spread to clothes when cast on a person. Spells don’t automatically spread to soul stones, even though they are Connected, without Sympathetic magic.

[orathaic]

So, I checked and I don’t think the Core rule book ever defines subject, which makes this difficult. My quick fix would be to ask if breaking the thing will reduce the Health/Structure of the thing, if so they are part of the subject. If not, then they are not part of the thing. Usually, breaking a window doesn’t really affect the overall structure of a building. Secondly, I don’t know how spells spread to clothes when cast on a person.

My assumption was that a subject was anything which you could easily define in English as the subject of the spell. Or to put it another way, a subject would be something which we have symbols for.

A cell, organ, limb or body could all be subjects of a Life spell. Proteins might be valid targets for Life or Matter, Chemical/Molecules and Atoms would be valid subjects for Matter - but you might want to try AoE effects on matter at that scale, as modifying a single atom isn't going to be particularly useful (even assuming you can get sensory range).

Other Arcana don't have English words for subjects in the same level of detail... But i think you would allow anything be a subject, so long as the character can understand what they are using as the subject to form the imago.

Spells don’t automatically spread to soul stones, even though they are Connected, without Sympathetic magic.

Yes, i think magically connected and physically connected are treated differently, they are only the same for sympathy. Physically connected things can easily be seperated (like dropping a cup), whereas metaphysically connected items require considerably more effort to form / destroy.

EDIT: i will say, the touching with a weapon thing makes me think you should be able to cast a spell at touch range on a circle of people holding hands. So long as everyone in the cicrle is taking part, a ritual cast by holding hands...

[21C Hermit]

My assumption was that a subject was anything which you could easily define in English as the subject of the spell. Or to put it another way, a subject would be something which we have symbols for.

A cell, organ, limb or body could all be subjects of a Life spell. Proteins might be valid targets for Life or Matter, Chemical/Molecules and Atoms would be valid subjects for Matter - but you might want to try AoE effects on matter at that scale, as modifying a single atom isn't going to be particularly useful (even assuming you can get sensory range).

Other Arcana don't have English words for subjects in the same level of detail... But i think you would allow anything be a subject, so long as the character can understand what they are using as the subject to form the imago.

I suspect there’s an implicit difference in the symbolic intuitions for Life and Matter. So an organ is a part of the body (unless explicitly removed), but an aperture etc is not a part of the building (unless explicitly reinforced and integrated).

[Tessie]

The problem with allowing an infinite (or near infinite) reduction of the subject is that it would be completely disconnected from the rules for Withstand. Any spell that is Withstood by the subject uses the character's stats for the Withstand rating. A spell that inflicts an Arm Wrack is not Withstood by the arm's Stamina because the arm doesn't have Stamina; it's Withstood by the character's Stamina so the character is the subject. We simply do not track separate stats for subunits of characters so applying the spellcasting rules system on such subunits doesn't really work. Maybe the character is a pro arm wrestler (having a Specialty on "arm wrestling" and/or "right arm"), or maybe their arm has just become useable after previous injuries but is still severely weakened (which would be represented through a persistent Condition); the character's Stamina is still the same and it's the character's Stamina that is used for the Withstand rating.

[orathaic]

The problem with allowing an infinite (or near infinite) reduction of the subject is that it would be completely disconnected from the rules for Withstand. Any spell that is Withstood by the subject uses the character's stats for the Withstand rating. A spell that inflicts an Arm Wrack is not Withstood by the arm's Stamina because the arm doesn't have Stamina; it's Withstood by the character's Stamina so the character is the subject. We simply do not track separate stats for subunits of characters so applying the spellcasting rules system on such subunits doesn't really work. Maybe the character is a pro arm wrestler (having a Specialty on "arm wrestling" and/or "right arm&quot, or maybe their arm has just become useable after previous injuries but is still severely weakened (which would be represented through a persistent Condition); the character's Stamina is still the same and it's the character's Stamina that is used for the Withstand rating.

Entirely fair abstractions for the purpose of a game. And as stated, you can remove the arm and then perform magic with it as the subject (possibly Death at that stage). Will it still have no withstand?

But it still seems like an abstraction for gameplay, rather than a description of how the magic works. Still it answers my question regarding how people play...

[Tessie]

Entirely fair abstractions for the purpose of a game. And as stated, you can remove the arm and then perform magic with it as the subject (possibly Death at that stage). Will it still have no withstand?

Depends on the spell. Some would be Withstood by Durability, which the arm wouldn't have before it was separated.

But it still seems like an abstraction for gameplay, rather than a description of how the magic works.

Magic is described and understood through rules systems and only experienced through gameplay. For all practical purposes that is how magic works, even if the characters in-setting might never use gameplay terms.

[Isator Levi]

I think magic as it works and is experienced within the setting is a bit more than the game rules that can represent it, but I'd also say that discussion of how to target discrete parts of certain subjects is not on the right track because the magic is largely functioning on metaphysics of things being what they're typically experienced as.

[orathaic]

I think magic as it works and is experienced within the setting is a bit more than the game rules that can represent it, but I'd also say that discussion of how to target discrete parts of certain subjects is not on the right track because the magic is largely functioning on metaphysics of things being what they're typically experienced as.

So you would say ppl normally experience a door and a window as a distinct targetable parts of a building, but not the eye, heart or arm of a person?

[orathaic]

I don't think i have seen this asked.

Where are spells once cast*? If you cast on a person, it follows them around, right? So then if you can see the spell (active prime mage sight) you can target it (with Wards/dispellation) at sensory range.

Can you touch the subject of the spell and attempt to dispell at touch range? For multiple subject spells i think it is clear the one dispellation is enough to suppress the effect for all targets, but an AoE dispellation effect may have different results...

So importantly, for AoE effects, can you activate prime mage sight and touch any point in the area to attempt a dispell at touch range? (Or sensory range of you can't get touch range by touching the subject of a spell).

Actually, that implies you could cast a dispell on yourself to remove a debuff spell without active mage sight (if the spell is touching you then you don't need sensory range... Of course if only prime users can dispell, they can always use active mage sight with prime, but costs a mana for 4/5th of characters, and another mana per attempt to dispell).

*I guess my original thoughts on this came from Pocket Dimension, as there location of the Spell's subject doesn't exist until the spell is cast... Without going to the pocket dimension, presumably you could dispell on an iris which was created by spell. So if it was actually in your pocket it could be dispelled by someone looking at you... Actually with sensory range can you only see spells where you can sense the subject?

So you wouldn't know someone had a pocket dimension in their pocket (with active mage sight on) unless you could see their pocket? Or the subject of their spell is the item of clothing itself, thus you can sense the spell if you can see any part of them?

[Satchel]

Where are spells once cast*? If you cast on a person, it follows them around, right? So then if you can see the spell (active prime mage sight) you can target it (with Wards/dispellation) at sensory range.
[…]
*I guess my original thoughts on this came from Pocket Dimension, as there location of the Spell's subject doesn't exist until the spell is cast... Without going to the pocket dimension, presumably you could dispell on an iris which was created by spell. So if it was actually in your pocket it could be dispelled by someone looking at you... Actually with sensory range can you only see spells where you can sense the subject?

So you wouldn't know someone had a pocket dimension in their pocket (with active mage sight on) unless you could see their pocket? Or the subject of their spell is the item of clothing itself, thus you can sense the spell if you can see any part of them?

Spells are objects that occupy the physical space and time required for a spell with their factors to affect the targets or areas they affect. As Pocket Dimension is a Master-level Space spell that is not required to be anchored to a physical space, it can sidestep the vulnerability this entails, but accessing the Made space presents a window in which it can be accessed.

Can you touch the subject of the spell and attempt to dispell at touch range? For multiple subject spells i think it is clear the one dispellation is enough to suppress the effect for all targets, but an AoE dispellation effect may have different results...

For multiple-target spells you need to target all the targets to suppress the whole spell. If you have Fate you can suppress less than the whole spell, but that doesn't imply that it's easier to stop ten people from being frogs than it is to stop two of ten people from being frogs.

So importantly, for AoE effects, can you activate prime mage sight and touch any point in the area to attempt a dispell at touch range? (Or sensory range of you can't get touch range by touching the subject of a spell).

Bearing in mind the possible consequences of touching an area-effect spell, yes. The Scale of the dispellation still needs to encompass the whole of the spell's subjects.

[Hyuse]

Hi everyone! Can someone explain where in the books a full set of rules for familiars, how they work, and what they do? My "speaker of the dead" has invested points to gain one of the ghosts he has helped out along the way to be a familiar for him, so gaining an understand of how the systems work would be helpful.

[Satchel]

Hi everyone! Can someone explain where in the books a full set of rules for familiars, how they work, and what they do? My "speaker of the dead" has invested points to gain one of the ghosts he has helped out along the way to be a familiar for him, so gaining an understand of how the systems work would be helpful.

The rules for the Familiar Merit are on page 101 of the Mage 2e core rulebook.

The "Familiar" spell can be found on page 183 of the Mage 2e core rulebook.

The rules for Invisible Entities (which familiars are a subset of) start on page 252 of the Mage 2e core rulebook, with a sidebar on familiars on page 253; the Familiar Manifestation Condition is described on page 260.