Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Tessie]

[...]

A non-AoE spell is a singular thing with no Size. To target it with a non-AoE spell of your own, you only need to perceive one subject of the spell, and you don't need any Scale increases to dispel the spell from all subjects.
If you want to dispel it selectively from multiple subjects (by adding Fate 1), you need Scale enough to cover each subject you wish to dispel, and implicitly also cast the spell on those subjects (meaning you need to touch/perceive those subjects or cast remotely/sympathetically on them).


For AoE spells, it's unclear. We simply do not know if an AoE spell that partially overlaps a subject affects that subject.

• Either it does, and then you don't need to increase Scale on your AoE spell to affect the entirety of the other spell spell.
• Or it doesn't, and you need to cover the other spell with your own AoE.
• In either case, a non-AoE Dispel Magic/Supernal Dispellation should still be able to affect an entire AoE spell. It depends on whether an AoE spell can be considered to have size that you need to account for with your Scale factor or not.
• In neither case would an AoE Dispel Magic/Supernal Dispellation only affect the overlapping parts. A spell either affects the subject or it doesn't. The other spell is the subject. However, we know that you can cast the spell on each individual subject instead of on the spell itself if you use the Fate option. I would personally allow adding Fate 1 (or Space 1) to only suppress the spell from subjects in the overlapping area, with the rationale that the subjects of the first spell would be the subjects of your spell rather than the spell directly. But it's not the default behaviour of the published dispellation spells.

[orathaic]

Spells are objects that occupy the physical space and time required for a spell with their factors to affect the targets or areas they affect. As Pocket Dimension is a Master-level Space spell that is not required to be anchored to a physical space, it can sidestep the vulnerability this entails, but accessing the Made space presents a window in which it can be accessed.

That was the conclusion i came to.

I think having an Iris - which is allowed, is it 1 reach per iris, either as part of the spell or you can create a portal as a seperate spell - gives you a downside, people who can see the Iris can see the spell which creates it and thus attempt to dispell it.

If that is a seperate spell from the pocket dimension (ie not made with the reach option) then you don't lose the whole space just the connection. But it costs an extra spell control/willpower...

For multiple-target spells you need to target all the targets to suppress the whole spell.

I can't see anything in the rules which suggests this. Can you provide a page reference?

My understanding is that, without fate, you have to either completely suppress the spell or not affect any it (AoE effects may differ).

Bearing in mind the possible consequences of touching an area-effect spell, yes. The Scale of the dispellation still needs to encompass the whole of the spell's subjects.

This would make area of effect spell very difficult to dispell. Withstand by potency (plus Wards) plus an additional scale factor. Interesting if correct as i was asking in my first question how to make a pocket dimension for a sanctum as impenetrable as possible.

A non-AoE spell is a singular thing with no Size. To target it with a non-AoE spell of your own, you only need to perceive one subject of the spell, and you don't need any Scale increases to dispel the spell from all subjects.

That was my understanding, i think the question is, can you touch the subject of the spell to cast at touch range (and i think you've answered it, with a yes. Even touch their clothes or with a weapon you are holding).

This would also apply to veiling the spell, touch one target and veil the spell where ever it is visible...

If you want to dispel it selectively from multiple subjects (by adding Fate 1), you need Scale enough to cover each subject you wish to dispel, and implicitly also cast the spell on those subjects (meaning you need to touch/perceive those subjects or cast remotely/sympathetically on them).

This seems much clearer as it is what i would expect from the description of the Fate spell.

For AoE spells, it's unclear.

Thanks for that, unclear is fine so long as it is clear that nobody knows.

[orathaic]

In neither case would an AoE Dispel Magic/Supernal Dispellation only affect the overlapping parts. A spell either affects the subject or it doesn't.

Interesting, that is exactly the opposite of what i would expect.

If you wanted to 'dispel' an effect in this way, you would have to Ward targeting the subject not the spell (adding to their withstand) and thus create an AoE which targets the people in the area making the original effect cease.

[orathaic]

Spells are objects that occupy the physical space and time required for a spell with their factors to affect the targets or areas they affect.

Ok, assuming this is the case (and targeting a spell requires taking into account its size). Do spells recheck their spell factors as they do with withstand?

Two possibilities, one yes. In which case you can increase the size of a subject and all spells on them will either be suppressed or fizzle (unless they have extra scale).

Alternatively, no. In which case you can expand the area inside an AoE effect (with Space) and get effective extra spell factors on the spell.

I don't find either of these possibilities particularly compelling.

I was leaning towards no, until i realised that spell do indeed keep checking their duration has expired. And so you can push a spell into the future (with time) or perhaps the past (though i think it can only exist in its own past ..) pulling a spell from its past should give it extra duration, aging it should reduce duration...

Is that right?

EDIT: Tangentially related. Can you cast an Aimed spell in a co-located space and throw it through to the other side? I guess the spell effect would appear as if from nowhere?

EDIT2:

Bearing in mind the possible consequences of touching an area-effect spell, yes.

And just to be clear, i am presuming you can walk up to a Ban which prevent you from entering an area, lay hands on it to touch the area, and attempt to dispell it (Without being 'inside' the area).

[orathaic]

And so you can push a spell into the future (with time) or perhaps the past (though i think it can only exist in its own past ..) pulling a spell from its past should give it extra duration, aging it should reduce duration...

So our Gardener/Zookeeper legacy should use Time to age indefinite spells faster so you can see them mutate faster...

This might require a Temporal Pocket (Time Making). But can you do it with lowerlevel practices of aging? I mean, i presume a shielding of time can not extend the duration of any spells...

[TempleBuilder]

So our Gardener/Zookeeper legacy should use Time to age indefinite spells faster so you can see them mutate faster...

Time works, you could use the growth angle to justify Life as well. Kinda like how movement falls under Forces, Space, and Time.

This might require a Temporal Pocket (Time Making).

Probably more like Time Unmaking to delete the time between changes.

But can you do it with lowerlevel practices of aging?

I’d accept Acceleration decreasing the time between intervals, it already lowers the time to do extended actions with a reach.

I mean, i presume a shielding of time can not extend the duration of any spells...

Why not? Spells aren’t particularly special, you can totally age them to dust with Time. I don’t see why preserving them with Veil of Moments wouldn’t extend the duration of a spell.

Edit:You can totally increase the rate of change in a spell with Prime by the way.

[orathaic]

Probably more like Time Unmaking to delete the time between changes.

Clearly i may be confused, not very good at Time spells, but i know if you cast Temporal Pocket (Making) on an area it experiences duration time and (for anyone outside the area) it appears almost instantaneously to have aged/prepared by that duration.

Corridors of Time (Unmaking) unmakes the subject's past, which could extend a Spell's duration... I suppose my confusion is Unmaking your future which is the opposite of Unmaking your past?

Though really Blink of an Eye and Temporal Pocket can achieve the same thing, with different spell factors, the Temporal Pocket allows you spend the actual time casting a ritual (or doing an extended action) without taking the +2 reach (but you need area of effect and duration...)

I don’t see why preserving them with Veil of Moments wouldn’t extend the duration of a spell

I don't think duration of a spell is a time effect. I think it is a conditional effect. The spell doesn't age, it simply is over a certain area/subject(s) and a certain time. There is definitely an argument for spell duration not being affected except when the spell is cast within a Temporal Pocket (or similar).

Either way, you get some funky effects. Either you can Temporal Pocket as a way to end any spell which isn't indefinite in duration - and indefinite spells which are unsafely relinquished. Or you get more time under the effect of a limited duration spell by casting a Temporal Pocket on the spell plus the subject of the spell.

Either the spell duration counts down time in the Temporal Pocket or it waits until relative time outside the pocket has passed and has extra duration for being in the pocket.

I suppose having Masters of Time able to end spells like this isn't particularly game breaking.... But Veil of Moments is different i think. RAW the subject is protected only from things which worsen with time. Not instant effects (like taking damage from a lethal attack). Which i think would include the Spell's duration ending.

[orathaic]

Time works, you could use the growth angle to justify Life as well. Kinda like how movement falls under Forces, Space, and Time.

Interesting, Life has growth mentioned in the Lexicon, but not under it purview on p.148 (are there other discrepancies?)

Are you suggesting a Making growth within the Spell's pattern?

[TempleBuilder]

Interesting, Life has growth mentioned in the Lexicon, but not under it purview on p.148 (are there other discrepancies?)

Are you suggesting a Making growth within the Spell's pattern?

I’m suggesting that a legacy treating spells as alive and growing things is the perfect place to make that sentiment very literal. ie, the spells can be alive if you want them to be. The practice to just do that is Weaving.
Edit: I suppose Spirit could work too.
Edit 2: Metamorphosis isn’t growth? Anyways, growth is just part of Life, same as healing as healing is just regrowth.

[TempleBuilder]

I don't think duration of a spell is a time effect. I think it is a conditional effect. The spell doesn't age, it simply is over a certain area/subject(s) and a certain time. There is definitely an argument for spell duration not being affected except when the spell is cast within a Temporal Pocket (or similar).

If the condition is Time, then Time can mess with it. It’s the same thing as Space messing with aoe spells.

I suppose having Masters of Time able to end spells like this isn't particularly game breaking.... But Veil of Moments is different i think. RAW the subject is protected only from things which worsen with time. Not instant effects (like taking damage from a lethal attack). Which i think would include the Spell's duration ending.

Maybe. Time isn’t my best arcanum either.

[KaiserAfini]

I think its worth pointing out that using Time instead of Death has a downside. Basing the approach on Temporal Pocket means that everything the spell would do will happen. So lets say a Gnosis 5 master used a lethal damage spell that lasts a day. That means [Arcana] damage will be inflicted at [Ritual casting time]. So for one day it would be, with a 30 minute ritual time, 48 intervals * Potency 5 = 240 damage taken in one go. Unless you can Make the interval and Unmake the consequences of the spell activating, so the question is if it can be done.

With Time 4 you could theoretically protect them from negative change, as per the Arcanum's purview. In such a case, a Clash of Wills might be required sometime or maybe for the spell to beat the Potency of the Time effect. Incorporating elements of that idea into this spell might be doable. Following that train of thought, I hypothesize that a Making of Time used for dispellation purposes would need to match or beat the duration of the spell (which might be very difficult for indefinite effects).

Observation: The fact all that damage can be inflicted at once is why a high Potency Blink of an Eye with the +2 Reach effect (making Ritual intervals into a minute or less) is one of the most horrifyingly powerful sources of damage.

[orathaic]

match or beat the duration of the spell (which might be very difficult for indefinite effects).

That had occured to me. There is this odd issue where the Master of Time gets to use an indefinite duration spell, but after one round it does not count against spell control, because it has either ended or never will, whatever was the subject of the spell is now permanently in that temporal Pocket.

Notably if it is a person and they can 'not physically move, consume, or injure anything — any at-
tempt to do so immediately ends the spell, but returns the subject to the timeline having just completed the action he attempted."

So I presume for a spell trapped in a Temporal Pocket (without it's subject) it will do nothing until ritual time has elapsed and then trigger its effect, exiting the Pocket.

If the spell has a continuous effect it may not ever break free from the pocket, even if indefinite... It may be considered to be out of spell control (unless the caster is also in the Temporal Pocket) and i could imagine it growing wild... But i think indefinite duration spells trapped for an indefinite duration inside a Temporal Pocket just blink out of existence.

I think some of this logic transfers well over to Space and manipulating the scale of an AoE spell (like casting Secret Room at advanced scale to shrink a large warehouse down two steps. Then cast you intended spell on the smaller area, slow the Secret Room to lapse, and then possibly recast it to grow the area two steps.

You now have a city block sized area affected by a spell cast at the smallest advanced scale.

But better is if you cast an area of effect on the largest scale, and then grow the area inside, and nobody can dispell the large area of effect because it is bigger than largest scale factor (without first dispelling the Secret room(s) which is making it bigger).

[TempleBuilder]

So, while browsing the forum for poison spells, I came across a old post saying Platonic Form can be used to make cyanide and other poisons. I actually wasn’t aware Platonic Forms carried any material properties besides shape and form. Is this a valid use of the spell?

[KaiserAfini]

So, while browsing the forum for poison spells, I came across a old post saying Platonic Form can be used to make cyanide and other poisons. I actually wasn’t aware Platonic Forms carried any material properties besides shape and form. Is this a valid use of the spell?

I would say its possible to make a platonic drug that makes the subject Addicted to the mage and their Nimbus, but otherwise it seems outside its purview. Platonic Forms are mana that was shaped into the forms it takes while inhabiting tass, so their properties should be the same as those that tass may have.

In addition, the spell Phantasm from page 227 of the 1ed book, from which Platonic Form appears to be based, states: "These objects do not and cannot possess qualities such as conductivity, magnetism or the like. Phantasmal wood does not float in water and it does not fuel a fire (though it can still be destroyed by such, it does not sustain the flame on its own)". So it appears that the intent is for them to be discartable tools.

[21C Hermit]

So, while browsing the forum for poison spells, I came across a old post saying Platonic Form can be used to make cyanide and other poisons. I actually wasn’t aware Platonic Forms carried any material properties besides shape and form. Is this a valid use of the spell?

If solely using Prime magic, I’d rather make a spell that changes properties of Tass so that it becomes poisonous, or add a Reach option to Create Truth so that the created Hallow has a Feature (Signs of Sorcery) where it generates poisons that happen to be Tass… Doubtful of using Platonic Form and/or Eidolon, though.