Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[KaiserAfini]

I think what is being said in page 102 is that you cannot obtain an Imbued item with an indefinite duration spell via purchase alone, since most mages would not want to risk their client abusing it, Consilia or Order precedent might have ruled against it or people simply do not want to deal with the Paradox risk of stronger ones. In this way, it means the mage either needs to make it themselves, negotiate via some powerful boon or get incredibly lucky on the field. I believe that should reconcile what both sources are saying.

[TempleBuilder]

Page 102

I note there is no reference in the attainment section, and there is

Wow, and first line too. I am blind, because I definitely reread that part. Hmm, so guess we have a choice now. Because it again doesn’t mention anything about indefinite in the SoS attainment creation clarification. I used a word finder and everything. So you can interpret that has not being able to make such things, or you can interpret that as such items not being able to bought with merit points. To muddy things further, Imbued Ally, a new merit in SoS says:

Your character has imbued a spell with a indefinite duration into a person or creature who is bound to her using the Prime Attainment, Imbue Item

Personally, I think that if such a restriction was completely intended, there would be a mention in the crafting rules.

Page 101

But i assume this refers to items with (for example) an indefinite alter integrity to enhance the item.

And the Lexicon describes Matter as the arcanum which 'tools, machines, and enhanced items.' - so i take it that these two merits have nothing to do with each other, excepting that if you put the effort into imbuing an item you might want to enhance it with alter itegrity to make it harder to destroy (though that spell, not being an attainment, can be dispelled).

Your interpretation is seemingly correct.

Rereadind the attainment, the only bit i am confused by is "The caster decides whether the spell imbued into the item is persistent (always active) or contingent (triggered by a word, gesture, or condition)." - does the user need to do the spell roll for persistent effects? If they aren't indefinite then they can only last until their duration

Slightly expended on in SoS.

Chosen by the creator on Imbuement. Persistent items are always active until their spell’s duration expires, unless dispelled. Contingent Items are triggered by a word, gesture, or condition set by the creator. Only one spell in a item may be Contingent

Apparently once dispelled, you need Word of Command to reactivate the spell, which does require you to roll, twice in fact.

... It seems like you are supposed to be able to have an always on spell effect (like a Ward on your sanctum) which doesn't cost you spell control because it is imbued, and which can be dispelled (as usual, but with lower potentcy, because it is hard to gain large dice pools on imbued spells).

I just like that narratively you could steal an item from someone's sanctum and disable its security system...

In the event of indefinite duration security systems, I’d rule that the imbued item that created them would be a powerful yantra to effect or bypass them.

EDIT: Contingent seems to mean my glasses of night vision could automatically switch off when they are taken off... Without using a fate attainment. But now I'm not sure.

I don’t believe this to be the case as Contingent spells re defined properly above.

EDIT 2: You could create a hammer of alter integrity, but without indefinite duration, you couldn't use it to produce unlimited enhanced items (even if you could, duration indefinite would be a -10 dice pool and pretty hard to do for lower Gnosis characters and Sleepwalkers).

That’s what primary spell factors are for. *realizes even with duration as the primary spell factor that’s still a -4 penalty* Makes it more plausible anyways. Willpower goes a long way I guess. Or you could use the 2 reach option to make it Lasting in this specific example. Actually I’m not seeing any mention of primary spell factors in the imbuement rules, I guess the default assumption would have the primary spell factor be linked to the spell’s arcanum rating. It could also be equal the Creators, but that seems more complicated. Or I guess you could go with it having no primary spell factors, which is a strange thing to not mention in the item creation rules. This is starting to remind me of the Changeling “fae twilight” debate.

[orathaic]

erm… I may be (metaphorically) blind and (actually) sick but I just reread the entire thing and it says nothing of the sort that I could find. Can you post a quote, please?

Yes.

Imbued Item (•+, Special)
Effect: An Imbued Item is an item storing a spell that does not have an indefinite duration

Page 102

I note there is no reference in the attainment section, and there is

Enhanced Item (•+, Special)
Effect: Your character owns an item enhanced by indefinite Duration spells, which permanently modify the item’s properties.

Page 101

But i assume this refers to items with (for example) an indefinite alter integrity to enhance the item.

And the Lexicon describes Matter as the arcanum which 'tools, machines, and enhanced items.' - so i take it that these two merits have nothing to do with each other, excepting that if you put the effort into imbuing an item you might want to enhance it with alter itegrity to make it harder to destroy (though that spell, not being an attainment, can be dispelled).

Rereadind the attainment, the only bit i am confused by is "The caster decides whether the spell imbued into the item is persistent (always active) or contingent (triggered by a word, gesture, or condition)." - does the user need to do the spell roll for persistent effects? If they aren't indefinite then they can only last until their duration... It seems like you are supposed to be able to have an always on spell effect (like a Ward on your sanctum) which doesn't cost you spell control because it is imbued, and which can be dispelled (as usual, but with lower potentcy, because it is hard to gain large dice pools on imbued spells).

I just like that narratively you could steal an item from someone's sanctum and disable its security system...

EDIT: Contingent seems to mean my glasses of night vision could automatically switch off when they are taken off... Without using a fate attainment. But now I'm not sure.

EDIT 2: You could create a hammer of alter integrity, but without indefinite duration, you couldn't use it to produce unlimited enhanced items (even if you could, duration indefinite would be a -10 dice pool and pretty hard to do for lower Gnosis characters and Sleepwalkers).

[TempleBuilder]

The attainment in the core book explicitly says the imbued spell may not have indefinite duration (while the imbuing of the spell is lasting).

erm… I may be (metaphorically) blind and (actually) sick but I just reread the entire thing and it says nothing of the sort that I could find. Can you post a quote, please? (The closest thing I could find says spells “a spell cast by using a imbued item might run out”. That is a very different wording from no indefinite spells)

So you can have glasses of darkvision, which are activated whenever you put them on (costing 1 mana) and which last for a day (any duration which isn't indefinite).

Then you spend 1 more mana to repeat the spell. But you can also take them off and give them to someone else to activate darkvision for that character... Also paying the mana and lasting the day.

Yep, but you can make a version of them that has the spell as indefinite.

Taking off the imbued items doesn't automatically cancel the spell (it is unclear if spells can have deactivation options similar to the activation rules, I'm guessing they should if the creator decided).

That’s a Fate attainment. Otherwise it just stays active until the duration runs out, or the creator ends the spell.

Obviously if these we're indefinite spells, you could use one imbued item to cast the same indefinite buff on everyone in the Consilium, and then sell the imbued item, or put it away... forcing the items to pay 1 mana for the spell every single time and not be indefinite balances things up a little (it becomes a 1 mana/duration/spell upkeep cost, rather than 1 mana forced and no upkeep).

Yes. You can do that. Except extremely few mages would allow themselves to be buffed in that style. Because anyone who can make a imbued item can also hide spells and their effects, and unless you personally examine the imbued item, with the proper arcana, you can’t know what exactly else is in the spell. Combined spells are a thing. Secondly, indefinite spells are offhandedly mentioned to sometimes cause people to go raptured. Not something most would want to risk, like radiation, people don’t want to risk even a very safe dose. Same goes for most mages, I think.

I am presuming the subject of the spell can't be locked, so in the glasses of darkvision example it doesn't automatically target the user, but if it is at touch range and the activation trigger is putting the glasses in your head, then it is pretty hard to target anyone else?? Whereas a 'Gun of Howl From Beyond', with the right reach(s) would target whoever the caster decided to (presumably, using 'point gun at the subject of your Spell's as the activation trigger if you can to make it intuitive - though there is no reason to assume the creator wanted that...)

In SoS, there is a “Curse” that has the imbued item only able to target whoever activated it. You can intentionally build that into your imbued item. Aside for that, aimed spells are the same spell factor as touch, so every item that is touch only can be aimed. Secondly, and I can’t stress this enough, have someone skilled in Prime double check any imbued items you get, to at least to know if it works as it’s supposed to.

[orathaic]

Although I presume that when casting with Ritual time the option remains to lengthen the casting for bonus dice

Very strange to think of the user having to do it a ritual time (presumably off of their own Gnosis, which might oreclude sleepers, of give them the same Gnosis 1 as for the paradox roll).

But yes, if the reach for instant casting has not been taken, it must be at ritual time with the ritual effectively being the activation trigger.

It just seems odd because in my head the imago is there (though obviously it's not all there as the subjects and spell factors can change) and it seems to be designed as a 'press button -> generate effect'

Doing a fairly long ritual (say for a sleepwalker) with a comparatively weak effect (though +5 for 18 hours does more than double the dice pool for a 5 dot spell) seems rather underwhelming.

Still a Sleepwalker using a Making practice or Unmaking is a fairly impressive feat (even if the duration is limited... You can have a portable hallow generator which will then refill the manapool of the imbued item...)

EDIT: though the cost of Create Truth is not something i had noticed until just now. Break even on mana would be fairly slow... Though making lasting Hallows with an imbued item is probably setting breaking - with standard scale, i presume that Hallow is 'arms lenght from a central point' in scale.