Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Obsidian Pharaoh]

Does a Legacy's first attainment get 2 Reach or just 1 if it's emulating a 1-dot spell using its Primary Arcanum? The wording in the corebook could be read as allowing 2 Reach ("Attainments receive only the Paradox-free Reach for meeting and exceeding Arcanum requirements") since the attainment requires the Primary Arcanum at 2 dots, but I see that most fanmade Legacies go for the just 1 Reach interpretation, while a few official Legacies actually get 2.

[Satchel]

Does a Legacy's first attainment get 2 Reach or just 1 if it's emulating a 1-dot spell using its Primary Arcanum? The wording in the corebook could be read as allowing 2 Reach ("Attainments receive only the Paradox-free Reach for meeting and exceeding Arcanum requirements") since the attainment requires the Primary Arcanum at 2 dots, but I see that most fanmade Legacies go for the just 1 Reach interpretation, while a few official Legacies actually get 2.

The example immediately following "meeting and exceeding Arcanum requirements" is a three-dot Attainment made from a two-dot spell having two free Reach. The first Attainment has one free Reach — the Eleventh Question's Undisturbed Scene puts it toward instant use.

[Obsidian Pharaoh]

The example immediately following "meeting and exceeding Arcanum requirements" is a three-dot Attainment made from a two-dot spell having two free Reach.

There's no issue with second-to-fifth attainments since their Primary Arcanum requirement matches their attainment level. I'm talking specifically about first attainments since their Primary Arcanum requirement exceeds their attainment level by default.

The first Attainment has one free Reach — the Eleventh Question's Undisturbed Scene puts it toward instant use.

On the other hand, the Tyrian Archons and the Reality Stalkers from Nameless and Accursed have 2 Reach for their first attainments. Probably just fringe cases, I guess.

[21C Hermit]

There's no issue with second-to-fifth attainments since their Primary Arcanum requirement matches their attainment level. I'm talking specifically about first attainments since their Primary Arcanum requirement exceeds their attainment level by default.On the other hand, the Tyrian Archons and the Reality Stalkers from Nameless and Accursed have 2 Reach for their first attainments. Probably just fringe cases, I guess.

The Arcanum prerequisites for Legacy Initiation (which is always 2), and the Minimum Legacy Ruling Arcanum requirement for Legacy Attainments (which equals Attainment rank), seem to be separate factors.

So, a First Attainment’s primary Arcanum requirement (and thus the Arcanum dot rating its Fixed Reach is calculated by), which is the same thing as the Minimum Legacy Ruling Arcanum requirement as described above, is still 1 — even if mages will have long met the criterion due to Initiation.

Strange, I know, but the fine letters do seem to work out.

EDIT: The First Attainments of the Tyrian Archons and the Reality Stalkers as described in N&A have the extra Reach at a condition or cost, so I’d say that they’re exceptions that prove the rule.

[Satchel]

There's no issue with second-to-fifth attainments since their Primary Arcanum requirement matches their attainment level.

It could be a one-dot spell for a two-dot Attainment and the math would be the same. Legacy Attainments calculate their Reach by the level of the Arcanum required for the Attainment, not the level of the Arcanum the character possesses.

[Tessie]

I'm talking specifically about first attainments since their Primary Arcanum requirement exceeds their attainment level by default.

It doesn't. The specified "Minimum Legacy Ruling Arcanum" for the first Legacy Attainment is clearly listed as 1 on page 199 in blackdark blue on whitebright blue.

The practical prerequisite is 2 because you need two dots for initiation, but that is not the same as the listed Arcanum requirement, which is what the text on Free Reach directly refers to.

[werikscs]

Does spell Veil of Moments (Corebook, p.188) prevent the subject from needing to meet basic needs (hunger, thirst, sleep, fatigue, etc)?

[Satchel]

Does spell Veil of Moments (Corebook, p.188) prevent the subject from needing to meet basic needs (hunger, thirst, sleep, fatigue, etc)?

"Immune to things that worsen with time" and "New Conditions and Tilts cannot be imposed on the subject while the spell remains in effect" would seem indicate this is the case.

[werikscs]

"Immune to things that worsen with time" and "New Conditions and Tilts cannot be imposed on the subject while the spell remains in effect" would seem indicate this is the case.

These conditions were not very clear to me in the spell description. Could the need to breathe also be affected? Sometimes I can't discern if a spell from one arcana is entering the area of another. In the case of breathing and eating, I would mistake it as being from the Life arcana only.

[Isator Levi]

These conditions were not very clear to me in the spell description. Could the need to breathe also be affected?

If you're breathing comfortably at the time the spell is cast, your pattern will be frozen into that state sure.

To the extent that being distinguished from the Life Arcanum matters, I think the fact that Reach is required to be able to heal wounds, regain Willpower or acquire Mana is relevant. I'd also say that if a person whose stomach was full when the spell was cast can be forced to throw it up then they'll be in a perpetual state of uncomfortable hunger.

Still, don't forget that there's a sidebar talking about how it's fine for there to be some intersections between the Arcana. Time might have some things that can hold off hunger, aging, even fix up a wounded individual, but you can't do things like change appearances or give somebody adhesive hands with it.

[Cauthon]

I have a question that harkens back to the days of the Bene Ashmedai and the Clavicularius. At what point does a Legacy become it's own thing? Or, to approach it from a different direction, what makes a Legacy into a group identity?

Say a Free Council Obrimos was refused entry to the Pure Sovereigns, so they go off on their own and self initiate into a personal legacy that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to the Sovereigns. Are they now a Pure Sovereign, and subject to the Sympathy laws?

The rules imply that you stay Connected even if you divorce yourself from the Legacy's community, so is it lines of inheritance etched into the soul and tracing back to the founder that makes you Connected?

[Isator Levi]

Say a Free Council Obrimos was refused entry to the Pure Sovereigns, so they go off on their own and self initiate into a personal legacy that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to the Sovereigns. Are they now a Pure Sovereign, and subject to the Sympathy laws?

I think the way to answer this that is most straightforward and in line with the general intent of Legacies is that it's not actually possible to found a Legacy that is truly identical independently. The Attainments might function in the same way, but there are going to be at least changes in the nuances of the ethos that forms the process of Legacy indoctrination and what that lends to things like the oblations and yantras that the Legacy bestows.

If your alt-Pure Sovereign was rejected on grounds of incompatibilities in the outlook, those are almost certainly going to find their way into what the new founder creates. Even if it was arbitrary denial to somebody who would otherwise be a viable candidate, I'd say they can be assumed to lack insufficient knowledge to truly recreate the ethos, rituals, and priority and approach to Mysteries of the original Legacy.

Hell, not just outlook. It's explicit that the process of founding a Legacy requires exploration of a Mystery key to its ethos through direct action. You might be looking for Attainments of improved bodily function, even towards an ethos of a perfected body signifying a right to authority, but you're probably not going to be able to engage with the same kinds of mystical expressions of and insights into those ideas that the original Pure Sovereign did. Not in an age where practical examples of kingship are not really available.

The rules imply that you stay Connected even if you divorce yourself from the Legacy's community, so is it lines of inheritance etched into the soul and tracing back to the founder that makes you Connected?

I think there may be some wires crossed here.

There are two ways Legacy is relevant to sympathy. Legacy members function as high level sympathetic Yantras to other members and components of their Legacy, which can alternately enhance the dice pools for casting on those things or provide the means of sympathetic casting at them without needing some external prop or intimate information. Actual sympathetic connections are still necessary, so a given member does not automatically have the means to cast on somebody that they've never met.

Mentors and students form Strong sympathetic bonds as a matter of course, which can tend to lead to one high ranking member of the Legacy having a good connection to several other mages, and the means to cast on them without needing anything that represents them. An enterprising mage might use a sequence of other spells to acquire bonds your student or master has that you do not, but you aren't innately bonded to any other Legacy member, although these two details together could be leveraged into allowing several members of the Legacy to regularly congregate, which would allow formation of natural bonds.

It does seem to me that it's possible for people to receive tutelage from mages other than the one who initially initiated them without complication, so over the course of your development you might form such bonds with additional mages, but that's never going to lead to more than five of them.

A true outsider is going to have no bond if they have not actually had the experience of direct interaction and shared ritual that a tutor and student have, nor are hey going to function as a sympathetic Yantra because they lack the properly calibrated alignment of shared refinement of Gnosis.

The purported common history of the Clavicularius and Bene Ashmedai is an edge case an actual Mystery. If there's any truth to the idea that they have a common lineage, and particularly to the idea that an initiate of one Legacy managed to become another, it's probably not going to be something applicable across other Legacies, and might owe a lot to the specifics of those ones being concerned with the inner realms of the soul.

[KaiserAfini]

I have a question that harkens back to the days of the Bene Ashmedai and the Clavicularius. At what point does a Legacy become it's own thing? Or, to approach it from a different direction, what makes a Legacy into a group identity?

Say a Free Council Obrimos was refused entry to the Pure Sovereigns, so they go off on their own and self initiate into a personal legacy that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to the Sovereigns. Are they now a Pure Sovereign, and subject to the Sympathy laws?

The rules imply that you stay Connected even if you divorce yourself from the Legacy's community, so is it lines of inheritance etched into the soul and tracing back to the founder that makes you Connected?

Well, if it is an existing Legacy, then they need some way to be initiated. A rogue mentor or a sympathetic one in the Legacy's astral realm are the least controversial. They could also find a Daimonomica or soul stone of the Legacy, but those raise heavy questions, since it can be argued that the mage essentially stole its teachings. But as soon as they obtain the full first Attainment, the ties of Sympathy are binding, no matter how they feel about the ones that refused them.

Should those not be the case, then they could start half initiated or with a general idea, then diverge as they make it their own. A Legacy is more than a set of abilities, its a philosophical view on how the mage chooses to specialize their magic, with corresponding symbols, practices and traditions. The Reality Makers are one of the most prominent examples. The founder was left half initiated as a member of the Sisterhood of the Blessed. He diverged by focusing on using their Arcana to focus on solving problems with minimal effort, rather than seeking a glamorous accumulation of political power from behind the scenes. He became a Reality Maker on the first Attainment, with no sympathetic ties to the Sisterhood. Everything follows the standard rules for Legacy creation afterwards, they must either make a Daimonomica or develop the third Attainment in order to pass it onto others.

[Cauthon]

Hell, not just outlook. It's explicit that the process of founding a Legacy requires exploration of a Mystery key to its ethos through direct action. You might be looking for Attainments of improved bodily function, even towards an ethos of a perfected body signifying a right to authority, but you're probably not going to be able to engage with the same kinds of mystical expressions of and insights into those ideas that the original Pure Sovereign did. Not in an age where practical examples of kingship are not really available.

Ah, I'd forgotten about the Mystery aspect. Yes, that makes sense.

I think there may be some wires crossed here.

There are two ways Legacy is relevant to sympathy. Legacy members function as high level sympathetic Yantras to other members and components of their Legacy, which can alternately enhance the dice pools for casting on those things or provide the means of sympathetic casting at them without needing some external prop or intimate information. Actual sympathetic connections are still necessary, so a given member does not automatically have the means to cast on somebody that they've never met.

Mentors and students form Strong sympathetic bonds as a matter of course, which can tend to lead to one high ranking member of the Legacy having a good connection to several other mages, and the means to cast on them without needing anything that represents them. An enterprising mage might use a sequence of other spells to acquire bonds your student or master has that you do not, but you aren't innately bonded to any other Legacy member, although these two details together could be leveraged into allowing several members of the Legacy to regularly congregate, which would allow formation of natural bonds.

It does seem to me that it's possible for people to receive tutelage from mages other than the one who initially initiated them without complication, so over the course of your development you might form such bonds with additional mages, but that's never going to lead to more than five of them.

A true outsider is going to have no bond if they have not actually had the experience of direct interaction and shared ritual that a tutor and student have, nor are hey going to function as a sympathetic Yantra because they lack the properly calibrated alignment of shared refinement of Gnosis.

Page 197's sidebar gave me the impression that all Legacy members (and Daimonomika/Soulstones) were Connected, but that that utility was limited by any caster's knowledge of who was actually in the Legacy. Much like how Seers with the Panopticon Crown are terrifying... if they know about you. If that's not the case, then it does change how I look at.

The purported common history of the Clavicularius and Bene Ashmedai is an edge case an actual Mystery. If there's any truth to the idea that they have a common lineage, and particularly to the idea that an initiate of one Legacy managed to become another, it's probably not going to be something applicable across other Legacies, and might owe a lot to the specifics of those ones being concerned with the inner realms of the soul.

Should those not be the case, then they could start half initiated or with a general idea, then diverge as they make it their own. A Legacy is more than a set of abilities, its a philosophical view on how the mage chooses to specialize their magic, with corresponding symbols, practices and traditions. The Reality Makers are one of the most prominent examples. The founder was left half initiated as a member of the Sisterhood of the Blessed. He diverged by focusing on using their Arcana to focus on solving problems with minimal effort, rather than seeking a glamorous accumulation of political power from behind the scenes. He became a Reality Maker on the first Attainment, with no sympathetic ties to the Sisterhood. Everything follows the standard rules for Legacy creation afterwards, they must either make a Daimonomica or develop the third Attainment in order to pass it onto others.

Both these lead well into a tangential question - Core mentions about Mages creating novel attainments for their Legacy; "A mage may either develop Attainments according to the orthodox teachings of her Legacy, or invent novel Attainments based on her personal approach to the Legacy’s doctrine."

At what point do you diverge enough from the root Legacy to become a new one? Can you have only your First Attainment be the same as the rest of your peers, and still be one of them? The Threnodists in 1E touched on that briefly in regards to their secondary arcana

[Satchel]

At what point do you diverge enough from the root Legacy to become a new one? Can you have only your First Attainment be the same as the rest of your peers, and still be one of them? The Threnodists in 1E touched on that briefly in regards to their secondary arcana

You can't initiate another mage into a Legacy until you've gotten your Third Attainment, so I'd say that if there's a distinction drawn between variants of a Legacy it's no sooner than that point; if you've managed to instruct another mage to the point where they've learned one of your Novel Attainments as an Orthodox Attainment, you might still qualify as a branch of the same Legacy, but the point of separation feels like it's narratively determined by changes in the focal theory and Mystery of your group.