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  • Originally posted by werikscs View Post
    Ground Eater (pag 173, Core) and Acceleration (pag 188, Core) could they work together or did they fall under the spell stacking rule?

    Ground Eater adds/reduces Potency to/from Speed and Acceleration multiply Speed by Potency.

    I believe they do not stack, since they affect the same stat, in this case speed. What would stack with those individual spells would be something like Levitation.


    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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    • I remember "something" about living beings reasserting their pattern and making it hard to have a lasting effect on them, outside of healing, damage and transform life. Can anyone tell me where that is or if that was a 1e thing or was it likely just specific to my old ST?

      Edit: found the side bar that goes over this, the one that talks about turning people into frogs, life 4 patterning cannot do the types of lasting changes that I was thinking it couldnt.
      Last edited by Mr.F.I.X.; 05-09-2022, 01:15 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Mr.F.I.X. View Post
        I remember "something" about living beings reasserting their pattern and making it hard to have a lasting effect on them, outside of healing, damage and transform life. Can anyone tell me where that is or if that was a 1e thing or was it likely just specific to my old ST?

        Edit: found the side bar that goes over this, the one that talks about turning people into frogs, life 4 patterning cannot do the types of lasting changes that I was thinking it couldnt.
        Lasting effects in 2e are those with ontological inertia, if the magic is removed the effect persists.

        I think you're partially conflating this with the 1e rule for indefinite duration:

        Originally posted by MtAw1e p120
        * The spell is permanent until cancelled or dispelled.
        Living targets, however, grow, change and heal. Spells with
        an indefinite Duration cannot be cast upon a living creature.
        In 2e a spell with an indefinite duration can be cast on a living creature.


        proin's Legacy hub

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        • Looking at page 111 of Astral Realms, there is the Platonic Element numen, which is used to create Platonic Exemplar. Both that term and the item's ability to safely relinquish spells share a similarity with Eidoforms, which appear on page 102 of Signs of Sorcery. Within that entry, it is mentioned that there are no known reliable methods of creating them. However, the Platonic Element numen's entry suggests this is a way to achieve this, one which smiths, alchemists and other mages that craft (using fire for the given example of a salamander) would have a higher likelihood of finding. It does not allow one to create Plastic Eidoforms (I imagine that requires an additional boon from a crafting Supernal summon or crafting the item entirely from Platonic Exemplars), but even then it still sounds remarkably useful.

          Does that mean that in 2ed that numen does not exists ? Would it be perhaps act as a gateway to studying the Mystery of the process, using a different ephemeral entity based on the crafting method (a member of the Forge Master or Lords of the Inanimate would be very interested) ?


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
          The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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          • I have a quick question about Ghost/Goetic Summons. Using the reach to give the summoned a one word spell, in theory, would always cause a breaking point as you are forcing a being to do something. Why wouldn't the act of summoning them and forcing them to come to you not also cause a breaking point?

            P.S. Is there a good resource for learning about Goetia outside of the book?
            Last edited by Hyuse; 05-25-2022, 10:45 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Hyuse View Post
              I have a quick question about Ghost/Goetic Summons. Using the reach to give the summoned a one word spell, in theory, would always cause a breaking point as you are forcing a being to do something. Why wouldn't the act of summoning them and forcing them to come to you not also cause a breaking point?
              Unless answering the summons is counter to the spirit's interests, there is no reason to assume that would be the case.

              That being said, yes, mages who do a lot of summoning and binding will either inure their tools of trade, conduct their work sparingly and/or Virtuously, or make their peace with not being especially Wise.

              P.S. Is there a good resource for learning about Goetia outside of the book?
              Astral Realms still has a lot of generally-usable information as well as a great number of example Astral denizens.


              Resident Lore-Hound
              Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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              • I'm inclined to think that it isn't an Act of Hubris to use magic to put a spirit on a task that it would already be inclined to do anyway; it's already the kind of thing it does, you just specify. That's the kind of thing that helps if you've spent time familiarising yourself with the local ecology, knowing the natures and interests of spirits so that you can match being to activity.

                You might lose a bit of flexibility, as I think there are a number of useful tasks that you could assign just about any spirit to do otherwise (like, tell one to follow somebody and report on what they're doing), but many a practiced shaman thinks it's a worthwhile tradeoff in the long run.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                  I'm inclined to think that it isn't an Act of Hubris to use magic to put a spirit on a task that it would already be inclined to do anyway; it's already the kind of thing it does, you just specify. That's the kind of thing that helps if you've spent time familiarising yourself with the local ecology, knowing the natures and interests of spirits so that you can match being to activity.

                  You might lose a bit of flexibility, as I think there are a number of useful tasks that you could assign just about any spirit to do otherwise (like, tell one to follow somebody and report on what they're doing), but many a practiced shaman thinks it's a worthwhile tradeoff in the long run.
                  If it was already inclined to do the thing, you are safer not using magic. Summon the entity, then negotiation for them to do the thing ( and no binding spell will be left to trace back to you or be dispelled ).

                  That still requires summoning though.

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                  • Originally posted by orathaic View Post

                    If it was already inclined to do the thing, you are safer not using magic.
                    I am putting forward an argument where it can be safe for the mages to do something with magic. I like the Wisdom system, but would be averse to the idea of something that seems elementary to a character concept innately taking hits to it.


                    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                    • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                      I am putting forward an argument where it can be safe for the mages to do something with magic. I like the Wisdom system, but would be averse to the idea of something that seems elementary to a character concept innately taking hits to it.
                      It was my understanding that that is what Inuring spells is for.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                      • Simple question: what could happen if one of the Bound (Supernal Being) is released?

                        My understanding is the Supernal Beings are symbols (or parts of Symbols) and that Ascending Archmasters become symbols. So would returning a Bound to the Supernal be equivalent to Ascension - or perhaps easier as you aren't creating a new Supernal Symbol.

                        And seperately, are there good reasons why you would want to keep them bound in the Phenomenal, rather than sending them to the Abyss?

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                        • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                          Simple question: what could happen if one of the Bound (Supernal Being) is released?
                          Well, the Suspire has a debatably-true account of one outcome, and the Seers keep the ravens of the Tower of London happy to keep another one from somehow causing the fall of England, but on a smaller scale

                          My understanding is the Supernal Beings are symbols (or parts of Symbols) and that Ascending Archmasters become symbols. So would returning a Bound to the Supernal be equivalent to Ascension - or perhaps easier as you aren't creating a new Supernal Symbol.
                          That's the particular work of the Alienated entente of archmasters — the Bound have smaller prisons that they could ostensibly be freed from before the prospect of returning them to the heavens.

                          And seperately, are there good reasons why you would want to keep them bound in the Phenomenal, rather than sending them to the Abyss?
                          Well, for starters, that would mean the Abyss has them.


                          Resident Lore-Hound
                          Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                          • Originally posted by orathaic View Post
                            Simple question: what could happen if one of the Bound (Supernal Being) is released?

                            My understanding is the Supernal Beings are symbols (or parts of Symbols) and that Ascending Archmasters become symbols. So would returning a Bound to the Supernal be equivalent to Ascension - or perhaps easier as you aren't creating a new Supernal Symbol.

                            And seperately, are there good reasons why you would want to keep them bound in the Phenomenal, rather than sending them to the Abyss?
                            The Bound are symbols that were cast out of the Supernal by the Exarchs, eventually degrading into thaumavores in order to survive their forced existence in the Phenomenal.

                            The process of returning them to the Supernal is a type of Ascension and the Alienated entente of archmastersuse that as a gateway for their own one. Sometimes via bargaining, merging with the being, tying their fates together and more.

                            The Bound are symbols that were either dangerous to the Exarchs or just not helpful in creating a humanocentric cosmos. An example would be a fate where the world ends, not necessarily badly, but it does. Since this opposes the eternal rule of the Throne, it was exiled. There could be Bound who embody compassion and empathy, a powerful weapon against the Tyrants. They coud also have sealed Typon, who could father new Idigam.

                            Regarding why not feed them to the Abyss, it doesn't eliminate the problem and increases the Void's encroachment on reality, there is a reason letting Supernal beings be consumed is an act of Falling Wisdom. It corrupts the symbols in ways that are not possible, which then can be weaponized against reality. The kraken is incredibly dangerous, but would you rather go through the trouble of creating highly complex containment procedures or would you prefer throwing it into non-reality, watch it become Cthulu and spend the rest of your life hoping it never awakens from its slumber ?


                            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                            • Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              It was my understanding that that is what Inuring spells is for.

                              Hmm, my statement probably requires the specificity of "the character concept of harnessing spirits".

                              Inuring works, but I think it leans a lot into the subject of how the character is doing something messed up. Like, I've no reservations about the idea of somebody needing to be Inured to not be jeopardizing their wisdom whenever they mind control somebody, even if that is assumed to be central to what they're doing.

                              Although part of what contrasts with that is that I'd feel the Mind Arcanum still has a lot that it can do besides the mind control, which makes the decision for that to be central carry a statement, whereas I feel the Spirit Arcanum does not offer so much around the act of directing spirits with it. That would be one where I think general use of the Arcanum gets undermined if its spine mostly puts you between the places of constantly risking Wisdom or Paradox.

                              Originally posted by orathaic
                              are there good reasons why you would want to keep them bound in the Phenomenal, rather than sending them to the Abyss?


                              I mean, mages are hardly comfortable with sending Supernal beings to the Abyss even in the event of doing so being necessary to save themselves or anything else. Per Signs of Sorcery, there are only a few Consilia who are even willing to make allowances for killing in self defence if they're beings in the service of the Throne that have been targeted at them. Golden Law and the sense of their own Gnosis as expressed through Wisdom would seem to agree on the idea that if you see one even doing something highly atrocious and your only option for prevention is killing it, you walk away.

                              While there might be some greater metaphysical arguments for that in terms of gradually feeding reality into the Abyss, I think its foundation can be something as simple as intuitively coming across as something deeply transgressive and profane. The Supernal might not be moral, but there is a certain innate rightness to it and its components, and feeding that into the horror of the Abyss can only ever be a terrible shock.



                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                              • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                                .
                                While there might be some greater metaphysical arguments for that in terms of gradually feeding reality into the Abyss, I think its foundation can be something as simple as intuitively coming across as something deeply transgressive and profane. The Supernal might not be moral, but there is a certain innate rightness to it and its components, and feeding that into the horror of the Abyss can only ever be a terrible shock.[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
                                I like this, because, of course your Gnosis would say that destroying supernal is bad, otherwise the universe wouldn't be so stable...

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