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  • I believe this is a simple question: With what Arcana and what Practice you can create a illusion of something? I have a player that wants to create a illusionist, creating fake images and fake bridges.

    He [and I for that matter] don't care for more efficient or useful practices or uses of arcanas ("if you can create a bridge with Matter Five, why would you create a fake bridge?"), and Mind don't convince me enough because you can create a Illusion for a specific target (or Scale of target) but not a fake image that exist in the world but is not solid.

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    • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
      Would it be possible to use a Weaving of Time to allow scouring of a subject's history ? Essentially it would diminish a skill by each dot scoured, if it goes beneath zero, you also temporarily forget any rotes with that skill mudra. Each scoured dot would "heal" at the same rate as lethal damage. A comparative effect is how the creations of the Watchmaker from Summoners are fueled.
      I'd personally lean towards having to Temporally target the points where the subject learned the skills - their days playing a sport for Atheletics, for example. I would NOT allow it to affect rotes tho - you can have a rote you have no skill dots in, it just means you dont get the benefit of the Mudra Yantra.

      Originally posted by altidiya View Post
      I believe this is a simple question: With what Arcana and what Practice you can create a illusion of something? I have a player that wants to create a illusionist, creating fake images and fake bridges.

      He [and I for that matter] don't care for more efficient or useful practices or uses of arcanas ("if you can create a bridge with Matter Five, why would you create a fake bridge?"), and Mind don't convince me enough because you can create a Illusion for a specific target (or Scale of target) but not a fake image that exist in the world but is not solid.
      For making an ephemeral illusion in the vein of DnD-style Illusion spells, Mind is your go-to for things that only the targets can see, while Forces would be a good candidate for visual-but-intangible phenomena. A Forces spell could make some heat-haze bending of light - call it "Mirage". Prime was the illusion Arcana in 1e, but 2e doesnt have a specified purview for holograms. Since it's the domain of "truth", I'd personally say that either Prime is incapable of produceing holograms, or it's a Fraying/Unraveling Practice.


      The Hedgemarshals, Fate/Space Mages who act as lawmen for Consillium/Freehold alliances.
      The Elan, Prime/Mind Mages looking to become non-amoral Liches
      The Extraterrestrial Seekers, Forces/Space Mages who explore space
      The Benthic Walkers, Forces/Life Mages exploring the deep sea

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      • Shadow Name can be used as a Yantra. As Above So Below can be used to enhance a targeted Yantra. Assuming you "targeted" a Shadow Name with As Above So Below, can the spell be observed? That is, Spells cast on a target can be viewed and analyzed by Prime Mage Sight, but where is "Shadow Name" located?

        Would it be you, since you are your Shadow Name, so long as you work under it's auspices? If so, does it mean that the spell becomes occluded whenever you shift into your Fallen identity?

        Would it be some piece of your Onieros, since the Shadow Name is a part of your identity, and plausibly has a manifestation in your psyche?

        Would it just be some nebulous "target", that can't be studied beyond maybe strange whisps that you can spot in the corner of your Mage Sight?
        Last edited by Cauthon; 07-05-2022, 05:00 AM.


        The Hedgemarshals, Fate/Space Mages who act as lawmen for Consillium/Freehold alliances.
        The Elan, Prime/Mind Mages looking to become non-amoral Liches
        The Extraterrestrial Seekers, Forces/Space Mages who explore space
        The Benthic Walkers, Forces/Life Mages exploring the deep sea

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
          Shadow Name can be used as a Yantra. As Above So Below can be used to enhance a targeted Yantra. Assuming you "targeted" a Shadow Name with As Above So Below, can the spell be observed? Spells cast on a target can be viewed and analyzed by Prime Mage Sight, but where is "Shadow Name" located?

          Would it be you, since you are your Shadow Name, so long as you work under it's auspices? If so, does it mean that the spell becomes occluded whenever you shift into your Fallen identity?

          Would it be some piece of your Onieros, since the Shadow Name is a part of your identity, and plausibly has a manifestation in your psyche?

          Would it just be some nebulous "target", that can't be studied beyond maybe strange whisps that you can spot in the corner of your Mage Sight?
          Perhaps the rote removal is excessive, but I thought it was an interesting property the summoned entity had.

          Looking at page 122 of the core book, the Shadow Name generally falls under the Persona yantra. Which means the mage (or cabal if applied to the Cabal Theme merit), plus any trappings or tools related to the Shadow Name are brought metaphysically closer to that particular symbolism. So if Vulcan has a hammer he brought closer to his Shadow Name, its going to be great for spells that shape, craft and manipulate flame. But if someone tries to use it in a spell to channel lightning or one to magically control its trajectory, it only provides the normal bonus, with no dice trick, because those are outside of Vulcan's symbolic portfolio and are closer to Thor's.

          Based on the information on page 292, it location seems to be widely encompassing. You walk as that symbolic persona until the Supernal acknowledges it and then they start to walk like you, which is when you gain the benefit of the merit and can build upon (or create, in case of an original one) its legend. Its in your sympathetic network, since it separates mundane persona from the shadow persona, plus Space can erase it entirely via Unnaming. It can be found in the Astral, because it must be deeply ingrained in your Oneiros to affect self perception and it has your correspondences outside of it (like in the Temenos). Its in your Fate pattern, drawing mythological correspondences towards you and rewards you for playing out your own spin on the legend. Its part of your Prime pattern, becoming part of your true magical self, shaping your Nimbus (and Long Term Nimbus) just as much as your personality, magical style and Legacy do.

          So the answer seems to be that its located on the mage and exists even when in their mundane persona, because its drawing a metaphysical line to distinguish the two. You can use it as a yantra when in the persona, so long as you stick to your mage identity's behavior, but its probably Wiser to be minimalistic and discrete to keep in line with its symbolic purpose. All the mage's spells are just as easy to see as before, its just that anything that connects them to their mundane persona or tries to see them while in that persona becomes more difficult.

          More information on how this extra level of secrecy translates mechanically and how it interacts with Occultation can be found here
          Last edited by KaiserAfini; 07-04-2022, 01:32 PM.


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
          The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by altidiya View Post
            I believe this is a simple question: With what Arcana and what Practice you can create a illusion of something? I have a player that wants to create a illusionist, creating fake images and fake bridges.

            He [and I for that matter] don't care for more efficient or useful practices or uses of arcanas ("if you can create a bridge with Matter Five, why would you create a fake bridge?"), and Mind don't convince me enough because you can create a Illusion for a specific target (or Scale of target) but not a fake image that exist in the world but is not solid.
            A Weaving of Forces should permit "hologram" type illusions, basically an advanced version of Control Light and Control Sound combined. I wrote up a spell to this effect in the Creative Thaumaturgy thread a little while back.

            The Mind Patterning spell Hallucination puts an image into the mind of the subject; if you cast it with Advanced Scale and have it affect everyone in the Area, for most purposes it would be a stand-alone illusion that anyone can see, so long as they're not too far away.


            The longer I study science the more I am convinced that it is functionally indistinguishable from what our ancestors would refer to as sorcery. And I would know, being both scientist and sorcerer.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
              Prime was the illusion Arcana in 1e, but 2e doesnt have a specified purview for holograms. Since it's the domain of "truth", I'd personally say that either Prime is incapable of produceing holograms, or it's a Fraying/Unraveling Practice.
              In 2e Prime can make use of the Truth to create platonic forms. The supernal ideal of an object (And Eidolons with mastery). The are solid, and really exist, until they run out of mana... Or in the case of the Eidolon the Spell's duration runs out.

              So it may not qualify for what most of us might consider an illusion (kinda green lantern powers) but might work for what altidiya was askig for.


              Originally posted by altidiya View Post
              I Mind don't convince me enough because you can create a Illusion for a specific target (or Scale of target) but not a fake image that exist in the world but is not solid.
              I think the answer, Mind can give hallucinations, Forces can give intangible illusion, Prime can give solid magical constructs which eventually vanish (Prime + forces can make these magical constructs not appear obviously magical).

              Comment


              • Originally posted by altidiya View Post
                I believe this is a simple question: With what Arcana and what Practice you can create a illusion of something? I have a player that wants to create a illusionist, creating fake images and fake bridges.

                He [and I for that matter] don't care for more efficient or useful practices or uses of arcanas ("if you can create a bridge with Matter Five, why would you create a fake bridge?"), and Mind don't convince me enough because you can create a Illusion for a specific target (or Scale of target) but not a fake image that exist in the world but is not solid.

                I believe this is the spell that Scriptorian mentioned, creative use of Forces can make good illusions and its necessary to make Platonic constructs appear realistic. I second the idea of Prime as a nice avenue for a master of illusions. The Reality Stalkers in 1ed has a interesting spell where they could do a Veiling of an object, similar to printing over it. Combined with some platonic items and some lucky breaks using Fate made them very good at improvising and being charlatans. A good example would be Hisoka from Hunter X Hunter, since all his abilities could be replicated with that Legacy. Another recent one that uses Prime in that way would be the expanded version of the Nighthawks.

                Mind has a lot of interesting things that a trickster can leverage. With a Weaving you can connect different ideas, such as connecting joy to doing a task the mage wants or shame for a topic they want the subject to hide (the Passion Link spell found on page 195 of Guardians of the Veil). Memory Hole and Read the Depths' Reach effect allow you to control how a subject perceives or remembers details of a situation. With a Patterning you can impose the Delusion condition, making them unshakingly convinced of anything, which can lead them to turn on their allies (using a capgras delusion) or even pursue a goal you set (Psychic Reprogramming). Depending on how much focus and resources are dedicated, a mage can achieve a more powerful version of Hallucination earlier. Put the target to sleep, control their dreams and make them forget they were put to sleep. Now use One Mind, Two Thoughts to continually manage their Lotus Eater Machine prison to temporarily remove them from the board, kill them via starvation or keep the powerful being in a containment it will not even want to escape.

                Merit wise, I would recommend the Familiar merit so they can get a Waxman (Astral Realms page 104) or an equivalent, like a spirit of hallucinations or a ghost with such a portfolio, like a stage magician. A Retainer with a field like special effects, practical magic or conning could also be interesting. If they really want to go all in with the theme, they could use mundane misdirection to make the Awakened magic even easier or more believable, in which case Professional Training in Subterfuge, Larceny and Stealth could be useful in setting up their trickery.
                Last edited by KaiserAfini; 07-04-2022, 07:16 PM.


                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                • Dave Brookshaw has often said that Forces effectively took over the purview of what would generally be called illusions. I don't really think it needs qualifiers such as working like a mirage, any more than the Invisibility spell needs to work on a basis of bending light waves in some fashion that could be exploited to reveal itself. Invisibility simply proceeds directly to the idea of becoming unseen under a purview of the medium for seeing stuff falling under Forces, so I should think creating a non-existent source of image comes under much the same logic. Weaving transforms ambient light into the image you want it to be, and there it is.

                  I do think illusions in any form under Awakening's systems are going to be a bit limited by a lack of innate capacity to respond or perform complex actions. I think a mage might be able to cast an additional spell upon their illusion to puppet it directly, but it's not really a construct that can be left alone and expected to, say, have a conversation with somebody. In this setting, that level of adaptability in a spell belongs to archmastery (although you might get close if you have the Arcana to, say, conjure up a mind that can be attached to your illusory construct to puppet it on your behalf).


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                  • What do Proximi use to determine the increase in primary factor for their Blessings ? Do they receive no bonus by default ? Space Blessings have no access to sympathetic range, correct ?


                    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                      What do Proximi use to determine the increase in primary factor for their Blessings ? Do they receive no bonus by default ? Space Blessings have no access to sympathetic range, correct ?
                      I read the details on page 307 as meaning they have their Willpower as a dice pool, but no "free" advances along any primary factors like a Mage would. I also read it as not granting Attainments, since they don't actually have any Arcana dots. House Rules might override that for more interesting retainers, of course.


                      The Hedgemarshals, Fate/Space Mages who act as lawmen for Consillium/Freehold alliances.
                      The Elan, Prime/Mind Mages looking to become non-amoral Liches
                      The Extraterrestrial Seekers, Forces/Space Mages who explore space
                      The Benthic Walkers, Forces/Life Mages exploring the deep sea

                      Comment


                      • Is Words of Truth supposed to be cast on "Mage plus any designated targets they want to affect"? Or is it a radius-affecting spell that radiates from the target, like Incognito Presence?

                        The way it reads in the Core book is the former; only designated targets can hear and understand you perfectly, or be affected by the Reach effect. But the Attainment entry for the Tyrian Archons in Nameless and Accursed reads as the latter; anyone in a reasonable proximity is affected, like a Mage waking around with Incognito Presence up.

                        Edit: OK, Tessie's logic makes sense. Ouch for the Archons tho - Words of Truth as a normal Scale-targeting spell is weak for a Legacy that implies powerful oration. Plus, the Reach effect for their subordinates is kinda pointless. You can only affect one person you can touch, and it only lasts around a turn. You could bump up either scale or duration -or both- a step or two at higher Prime, but it still means that the Inspired/Guilty condition will be fleeting, at best. You could move it to the third Attainment to get another Reach to play with, although the Apprentice Attainment doesn't have an easy replacement.

                        Come to think of it, The Chronologues have the same issue. That seems to be an issue with most of the published Legacy Attainments that affect other people - most of them either don't last long enough to have a real impact, don't have enough Potency to affect most people, or affect too small a scale compared to their stated purpose.
                        Last edited by Cauthon; 07-06-2022, 04:19 PM.


                        The Hedgemarshals, Fate/Space Mages who act as lawmen for Consillium/Freehold alliances.
                        The Elan, Prime/Mind Mages looking to become non-amoral Liches
                        The Extraterrestrial Seekers, Forces/Space Mages who explore space
                        The Benthic Walkers, Forces/Life Mages exploring the deep sea

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cauthon View Post
                          Is Words of Truth supposed to be cast on "Mage plus any designated targets they want to affect"? Or is it a radius-affecting spell that radiates from the target, like Incognito Presence?

                          The way it reads in the Core book is the former; only designated targets can hear and understand you perfectly, or be affected by the Reach effect. But the Attainment entry for the Tyrian Archons in Nameless and Accursed reads as the latter; anyone in a reasonable proximity is affected, like a Mage waking around with Incognito Presence up.
                          Both the spell and the attainment calls those who are affected subjects, meaning they have had the spell/attainment cast on them.
                          Also, unlike Words of Truth, Incognito Presence has a Mana cost to balance out that it affects everyone around the subject.


                          Bloodline: The Stygians
                          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                          • Could a Supernal entity with the appropriate manifestations theoretically Claim a sleepwalker? I'm thinking it'd take multiple summonings to get the necessary repeated possessions, but once it does, do you suppose it'd be safe from the corpus damage of being in the Fallen world in the same way other ephemeral entities are safe from essence bleed?

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                            • Supernal entities aren't ephemeral entities and don't have Manifestations. The Invisible Entities section is very careful about when it uses the word "ephemeral."

                              There probably are other forms of intrusion into the Fallen World than traditional supernal summonings, though they're unlikely to look like an ephemeral entity using Manifestations like Claim. Ochemata, for example, are detailed in Signs of Sorcery as extruded avatars of supernal gods.

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                              • I remember there was one in Summoners that could survive the Fallen World. You offered a temporal sympathy "strand" of the time of death of a person as its trial, then it would take the person's appearance and mannerisms, acting as a surrogate. There always would be a flaw, like a different eye color, hair color, a new habit, a different voice, etc. It was protected from Fallen corrosion while doing its job and would remain until someone pointed out they were not the original.


                                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                                The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                                The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy whose invisible hands guide through the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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