Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[orathaic]

I am not sure why you think that is.

Keep in mind, dispelling only requires one dot of Prime and (in this case) Space. A spell with high Withstand will make things difficult for a large number of mages who cannot readily get high Potency or exceptional success.

Because i was mistakenly misunderstanding that withstand reduced successes, so once you get 5 successes instead of overcoming more withstand you exceptional success and choose to ignore the withstand.

But that isn't how it works at all.

[Isator Levi]

Yes, you could have a spell of whatever Potency with only one success. Withstand will subtract from Potency, unless exceptional success is rolled (if that option is chosen over things like Mana refund or a Condition to get an Arcane Beat).

This has significance when you cast spells with effects tied to Potency on people. If a person has Resolve 4, it can be the difference between reducing an Attribute by 1 and by 5.

[orathaic]

Ok, so if someone cast withering (Death 4 unravelling - even though you are making them more dead) on a target with Wards and Signs (Prime 2 sheilding) of potency 3, the withering either gets 1-4 successes and applies (potency-3) damage, or 5 successes (3 for praxis) and does full potency damage (but damage spells normal are withstood so this benefits the defender a lot).

EDIT: and thank you, too much 1st Ed thinking.

[KaiserAfini]

Does the Familiar link always ping the Peripheral Sight ? If so, it seems to be a weird thing for the Guardians to have as a standard thing in Order Archives, since it seems like it would make it more difficult for the mage to blend in.

[Isator Levi]

Ok, so if someone cast withering (Death 4 unravelling - even though you are making them more dead) on a target with Wards and Signs (Prime 2 sheilding) of potency 3, the withering either gets 1-4 successes and applies (potency-3) damage, or 5 successes (3 for praxis) and does full potency damage (but damage spells normal are withstood so this benefits the defender a lot).

Yes.

Does the Familiar link always ping the Peripheral Sight ?

Well what do you mean by "the Familiar link"? Do you mean a Familiar walking into the presence of a mage? No; Peripheral Sight alerts mages to the activation of powers within their presence. If a person casts a dozen spells on themselves in the morning in their sanctum, they're not going to trigger the Sight of every mage they walk past.

If you mean the sense sharing or Mana-Essence transfer, I'd say yes, those are active powers.

If so, it seems to be a weird thing for the Guardians to have as a standard thing in Order Archives, since it seems like it would make it more difficult for the mage to blend in.

Blend in with whom?

[KaiserAfini]

I just reviewed page 90 of the core book and the supplemental material on page 25 of Signs of Sorcery. The way its explained seems to suggest it detects all active supernatural effects nearby. But it doesn't draw a distinction between, for example, an active buff or the immediate activation of the effect. So technically both a Life increase to Dexterity cast at the beginning of the day and one cast impromptu should theoretically ping. Would there be perhaps a further source of clarification that I am missing ?

By that train of thought, I imagined having things that would ping the Peripheral Sight while in your mundane persona would be a bad practice by Shadow Name standards, which would theoretically be something the Guardians would frown upon, even if it Familiars could provide a steady influx of intel while they go about their everyday lives.

[Satchel]

I just reviewed page 90 of the core book and the supplemental material on page 25 of Signs of Sorcery. The way its explained seems to suggest it detects all active supernatural effects nearby. But it doesn't draw a distinction between, for example, an active buff or the immediate activation of the effect. So technically both a Life increase to Dexterity cast at the beginning of the day and one cast impromptu should theoretically ping. Would there be perhaps a further source of clarification that I am missing ?

Every published example of Peripheral Mage Sight triggering is based in an event happening or a record of an event happening, with the exceptions of the presence of Aedes, Ochemata, Lucid proto-mages, and Hallows/stored Mana/appropriate invisible entities with the modifications provided by the Mana Sensitivity Merit and the Lesser Utility Attainments for Death, Mind, and Spirit.

The corebook's section on Active Mage Sight likewise says Peripheral Sight is triggered by supernatural events, and, of course, Signs clarified that Peripheral Mage Sight normally works through the lens of your mundane senses and leads with "the casting of a spell" rather than "the presence of a spell" as the mage-specific example of things that trigger Peripheral Sight.

It's there to play the X Files theme when you witness a spooky phenomenon, and if something's mere presence is making your hair stand on end it's because it's especially potent and/or you've trained your sixth sense to that end.

[Isator Levi]

I just reviewed page 90 of the core book and the supplemental material on page 25 of Signs of Sorcery. The way its explained seems to suggest it detects all active supernatural effects nearby.

The way it uses the word "active" might seem to suggest that it responds to everything that is presently functional, the actual explanations specify that it means "thing that has just been activated".

By that train of thought, I imagined having things that would ping the Peripheral Sight while in your mundane persona would be a bad practice by Shadow Name standards, which would theoretically be something the Guardians would frown upon, even if it Familiars could provide a steady influx of intel while they go about their everyday lives.

I think the reasoning of carrying around something that might alert Peripheral Mage Sight causing the Shadow Name to intrude on mundane persona has a fault in its logic already. It's really mostly a thing concerned with who and what the mage deliberately casts their own spells on, and maybe also some other things happening to or arising from them that results in something actually... consequential happening to their mundane life. I could see an argument that a mage making trouble with spirits in a way that causes them to retaliate against Sleeper relatives undermines the Shadow Name, but not simply having a mystical connection to a single spirit.

Even if your proposal was accurate, that could lead into the point that Guardians often discourage members from living by anything but a Shadow Name; depart completely from the life you had before and live exclusively for the Mysteries. Interact with Sleepers only in the persona of a cult manager or some form of shadowy figure that can fix things up for them or make their life hell.

[KaiserAfini]

I see, that makes things much easier. Thank you both for the clarification.

[orathaic]

Ok, some questions about the Eidolon spell (Prime 5 Making). It allows conjunctional Mind 5 (Making) to give it a mind of its own. 1) Would it also be reasonable to allow Goetic summons (Mind 3 Perfecting) to summon a part of one's own soul (possibly your virtue?) and have the Goetic Demon possess the mindless Eidolon (either conjunctionally or as a seperate spell).

Assuming this is possible, 2) could you also use Forge Purpose (Prime 5 Making) to give the Eidolon/Goetic Demon one of your Obsessions? And essentially leave it to its own devices... (Maybe with some instruction...)

And 3) what happens when your Goetic Demon returns to the Astral (again assuming you summoned it from your own Oneiros, not somewhere else). Would you be able to integrate its experience and gain any Arcane Experience it might have acquired while embodied.

Similarly, 4) could you bind a ghost or spirit to an Eidolon (which is essentially an object, so might fit the requirements for making a fetish).

For a ghost 5) could you make it look like the ghost's original body?

For a spirit 6) could the Eidolon be a platonic ideal of whatever the spirit is resonant with?

[Satchel]

Ok, some questions about the Eidolon spell (Prime 5 Making). It allows conjunctional Mind 5 (Making) to give it a mind of its own. 1) Would it also be reasonable to allow Goetic summons (Mind 3 Perfecting) to summon a part of one's own soul (possibly your virtue?) and have the Goetic Demon possess the mindless Eidolon (either conjunctionally or as a seperate spell).

I think at that point you're just using Goetic Summons with conjunctional Prime 5 to give it a body made out of a complex Pattern.

Assuming this is possible, 2) could you also use Forge Purpose (Prime 5 Making) to give the Eidolon/Goetic Demon one of your Obsessions? And essentially leave it to its own devices... (Maybe with some instruction...)

Invisible Entities don't have Aspirations or Obsessions and goetia are arguably the least conceptually flexible of the lot, so probably not.

And 3) what happens when your Goetic Demon returns to the Astral (again assuming you summoned it from your own Oneiros, not somewhere else). Would you be able to integrate its experience and gain any Arcane Experience it might have acquired while embodied.

Strong odds against, since they don't track Experiences and the nearest analog to what you're suggesting (ochemata) has the spending pull in the other direction (i.e. subsouls casting spells that cost Arcane Experience use their creator's pool).

Similarly, 4) could you bind a ghost or spirit to an Eidolon (which is essentially an object, so might fit the requirements for making a fetish).

Under the same logic as Golem's conjunctional use of Death or Spirit, yes.

For a ghost 5) could you make it look like the ghost's original body?

Per the visual limitations of Eidolon without conjunctional Forces, sure.

For a spirit 6) could the Eidolon be a platonic ideal of whatever the spirit is resonant with?

Unpack what this means.

[orathaic]

Unpack what this means

To use the example in the book, Eidolon fire (which does not burn) as a fetish object for a spirit of fire (which may gain essence from the usual fire related things and thus might like being in the platonic ideal of fire - and is not bleeding essence at least if i understand the possession rules).

It might even influence the Eidolon fire to burn things using influence fire.

It is the 'may imitate entire environments' part of the Eidolon spell i am thinking of. Ok you've got a fairly solid illusion going on, now can it be enhanced by a little spirit magic?

[orathaic]

Invisible Entities don't have Aspirations or Obsessions and goetia are arguably the least conceptually flexible of the lot, so probably not.

The forge purpose spell doesn't mention anything about needing to have aspirations. In fact it can explicitly force Obsessions onto sleepers (so they gain arcane experience where they normally could not).

So to extend the question, can you cast forge purpose on anything with a mind? (Spirits, ghosts, vampires, changelings, a true fae?).

Your counter point about Ochemata actually makes me think the opposite - shared souls/soul shards share a common pool of arcane experience - allowing Ochemata to cast some spells which require this cost.

Goetic Summons specifically says

Summoning aspects of one’s own
soul is dangerous, but rewarding

Which suggests this is like a non arch-mage version of creating an Ochemata (the Goeta can't cast supernal magic, so it isn't a full shard of your awakened soul... I don't know would making it a soul stone make it any more soul -like...)

[Isator Levi]

Which suggests this is like a non arch-mage version of creating an Ochemata (the Goeta can't cast supernal magic, so it isn't a full shard of your awakened soul

Without going into too much detail about what the nature of the Astral Realms and Goetia are, Goetia from an Oneiros would be distinct from Ochemata in that they're not really formed from the stuff of the soul so much as constructs of personality traits. Like, they're aspects of the soul insofar as that's where the Oneiros in which they reside is found, but otherwise something like the Goetia of your wrath or your fear of spiders or the bad memory of your disastrous first date are far smaller entities. And it's dangerous because while they're summoned, those traits aren't in your head informing your behaviours.

[orathaic]

Under the same logic as Golem's conjunctional use of Death or Spirit, yes

Reading the Golden spell's conjugational options and
Ok fine for mind 5 making or death/spirit 4 binding. But it does not suggest allowing the use of goetia as a controlling mind in a Golem at all (and by extension in an Eidolon).

Is that an overly strict interpretation? And is there a reason Mind 5 is required for both Golem/Eidolon while Spirit/Death 4 is only mentioned for Golems? ( I note mind 5 is the only conjunctional for Create Life to give an animal its own mind - though that doesn't prevent you from binding a spirit/ghost/goetia into an animal).