Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

[Suleri Drals]

I reopen the thread : (Original author : Archmage Joda)

To restart :

Q1 : Camelot was created by Imperium Rite or Practice ?

[KaiserAfini]

One of my player Mages has a Goetic Familiar, and the Cabal has access to a Synese that they will probably be using to shortcut into the Astral on a regular basis. So the question is: can the familiar use the Synese? If not, is there some other straightforward way of getting a Familiar into the Astral?

In theory the familiar is already in "though form", similar to a meditating or sleeping person. So if they use the Key or have a Mind mage Weave it open, they should be able to pass.

[Scriptorian]

One of my player Mages has a Goetic Familiar, and the Cabal has access to a Synese that they will probably be using to shortcut into the Astral on a regular basis. So the question is: can the familiar use the Synese? If not, is there some other straightforward way of getting a Familiar into the Astral?

[KaiserAfini]

Usually when a spell fails because of Withstand in my games, it is because the player actually forgot to even consider Withstand when preparing the spell. Otherwise they usually raise it more than high enough to get past any Withstand. What empe999 says about Withstand on debuffs is true though. The system does not lend itself very well to debuffs because they are relatively ineffectual. In many cases buffing your own is going to translate to roughly the same impact as debuffing the enemy, but the former is much easier. Of course not all Arcana offer buffs for every situation, while debuffs are more widespread over the Arcana.

When you buff a character, it means only they become a bigger threat with their attacks that round. But debuff the giant spirit and it will have the same effect as buffing the entire cabal and their allies, should they focus attacks on it, all while requiring lower scale on the cast. I imagine that Withstand combined with the spell stacking rules are there to discourage debuffing as a first order strategy, especially since its not a particularly inventive one.

[saibot]

I was actually under the impression that, when forming the imago, you'd know how much withstand there would be. But that seems to not be the case.

Yep, that is where Mages' information gathering powers are meant to come in. Using Knowing spells and Mage Sight to know Withstand before you cast.

[empe999]

I was actually under the impression that, when forming the imago, you'd know how much withstand there would be. But that seems to not be the case.

[Tessie]

So speaking of Withstand, for those who have actually played in games, how does the rules translate to practice. What I mean is does the Withstand rules as is cause players to have a lot of their effects fizzle or do they still apply a lot. Because I gotta say with the way that the rules are written it seems that a lot f castings would fail, and that seems more annoying than fun for a player of a mage who wants to actually use the magic they are supposed to be able to use.

My experience is that most spells aren't Withstood because they're cast on yourself or your cabalmates who'd naturally choose not to apply their personal Withstand rating, or because it's cast on the environment/objects without requiring a Withstand rating. When Withstood spells are cast, they're generally Potency primary, and it's relatively easy to guess (ephemeral Rank or probable Resistance Attribute for a Sleeper) or even know (Sympathetic Withstand) what the Withstand rating is going to be so you just adjust it accordingly if your spell doesn't automatically overcome it. In doubt, you could even cast spells to figure it out.
Casting on enemies that can buff their Withstand ratings (enemy mages, certain other supers) was uncommon, and the spell failing was simply a risk you'd have to take.

Tl;dr the vast majority of spells will succeed, either because they're simply not Withstood or because it's very easy to just compensate if needed. The only spell I remember casting that failed because of spell factors was when I failed to take Size into account.
I don't get why you'd think it'd be common for spells to fail unless you fail to take into account the dice bonuses of Yantras. Especially Personas and Mudras can add tons of dice without taking more than one slot each, and a simple Mantra or other +2 Yantra can fill out any excess Yantra slots. Also, +3 from Willpower is a great way to increase the dice pool further without spending either time or a Yantra slot.

[saibot]

Usually when a spell fails because of Withstand in my games, it is because the player actually forgot to even consider Withstand when preparing the spell. Otherwise they usually raise it more than high enough to get past any Withstand. What empe999 says about Withstand on debuffs is true though. The system does not lend itself very well to debuffs because they are relatively ineffectual. In many cases buffing your own is going to translate to roughly the same impact as debuffing the enemy, but the former is much easier. Of course not all Arcana offer buffs for every situation, while debuffs are more widespread over the Arcana.

[empe999]

So speaking of Withstand, for those who have actually played in games, how does the rules translate to practice. What I mean is does the Withstand rules as is cause players to have a lot of their effects fizzle or do they still apply a lot. Because I gotta say with the way that the rules are written it seems that a lot f castings would fail, and that seems more annoying than fun for a player of a mage who wants to actually use the magic they are supposed to be able to use.

regarding what I've played, withstand against non-supernal or mage entities has been mostly irrelevant. A psychic domination rote for example, starting with mind 3, is going to be potency 3 and have a lot of dices on the cast due to the rote (generally +3 or more dices) and willpower (+3). Realistically how how will the withstand be without supernal defense? 3, maybe 4? Just up the potency a bit and you are fine.

The only effects that suffer from withstand are spells like degrading the form, but I've never seem them cast. why bother when you can cast something much better or buff you up to strenght 10 with life 3 and a rote in honing the form instead of spending turns de-buffing the enemy with a withstood spell.

This applies for other supes too. Vampires can get to stupid high stamina withstand level as Resilience affects stamina, but anything targeting composure or resolve is gonna have the usual 3 or 4 points in withstand. If they are frenzing and also have high blood potency it becomes really harder, but you can always affect stuff around them instead that targeting them directly. turn the air around the vamp in fire, use matter to shape a cage or form a wall in front of them, trap them in a ban and so forth. Or just have life 3 and mind 3 and straight up murder any frenzying vampire ever pumping you up to strenght 10, brawl/weaponry 10 and athletics 10 before the fight. All you need is either preparation or creativity.

[KaiserAfini]

So speaking of Withstand, for those who have actually played in games, how does the rules translate to practice. What I mean is does the Withstand rules as is cause players to have a lot of their effects fizzle or do they still apply a lot. Because I gotta say with the way that the rules are written it seems that a lot f castings would fail, and that seems more annoying than fun for a player of a mage who wants to actually use the magic they are supposed to be able to use.

It all depends on the time available and level of discretion required.

You need to cast a Postcognition in a safe area ? High Speech and Concentration. Need to scry on someone remotely while amidst a party ? Use cup of wine/water to represent a scrying pool and your phone to represent capturing an image.

Need to cure someone of a powerful curse ? Spend ritual time annoiting them with salt or water (shinto based cleansing yantra), use high speech, sacrifice a handmade health charm (+2 sacrament yantra) and inscribe runes into them using a pen.

The more powerful the mage, the more likely they will acquire or create specialized tools to help them, such as a Moros making tools from perfected metals, a Thyrsus creating specific plants/animals or an Acanthus making lucky trinkets. Some pick a Shadow Name that synergizes with them and cultivate it, or otherwise create one of their own.

Lastly, there is always the option of finding rare sacraments for potent spells, but there is always the question whether spending or seeking out an uncommon resource is needed.

[KaiserAfini]

Yup. The spell is still active and if the Withstand rating changes the Potency adjusts, but otherwise it's just a spell whose impact is being a spell.

Makes sense, thank you. For some reason I always thought the main factor was Withstood.

[rwknoll]

So speaking of Withstand, for those who have actually played in games, how does the rules translate to practice. What I mean is does the Withstand rules as is cause players to have a lot of their effects fizzle or do they still apply a lot. Because I gotta say with the way that the rules are written it seems that a lot f castings would fail, and that seems more annoying than fun for a player of a mage who wants to actually use the magic they are supposed to be able to use.

No, this hasn’t been my experience. The easiest ways to get around it are to ritual cast and/or find better yantras for a stronger bonus. Mages who are prepared naturally do better at casting strong spells, which is a feature of the system mechanics rather than a flaw. When trying to cast stronger spells, reach effects let you really bump up duration and scale quickly, so it tempts players to use more and more reach to accomplish better spells. You can also ignore withstand as an option when you get an exceptional success on a casting roll, so praxes (which only need 3 successes) and rotes (which grant up to +5 from one yantra alone) are also great ways for fledgling mages to overcome withstand ratings.

[LordHeru]

So speaking of Withstand, for those who have actually played in games, how does the rules translate to practice. What I mean is does the Withstand rules as is cause players to have a lot of their effects fizzle or do they still apply a lot. Because I gotta say with the way that the rules are written it seems that a lot f castings would fail, and that seems more annoying than fun for a player of a mage who wants to actually use the magic they are supposed to be able to use.

[Satchel]

If a spell is Duration primary, does it mean by default it does nothing if it can be Withstood ? For example, String of Fate is Withstood by Resolve, so rather than Resolve diminishing the duration of the effect, it always reduces Potency. Should Potency become zero it completely nullifies it, is that correct ? Therefore, you would need to get it to 3 for it to even affect an average human ?

Yup. The spell is still active and if the Withstand rating changes the Potency adjusts, but otherwise it's just a spell whose impact is being a spell.

[KaiserAfini]

If a spell is Duration primary, does it mean by default it does nothing if it can be Withstood ? For example, String of Fate is Withstood by Resolve, so rather than Resolve diminishing the duration of the effect, it always reduces Potency. Should Potency become zero it completely nullifies it, is that correct ? Therefore, you would need to get it to 3 for it to even affect an average human ?