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  • Suleri Drals
    started a topic Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

    Ask a simple question, Awakened edition

    I reopen the thread : (Original author : Archmage Joda)

    To restart :

    Q1 : Camelot was created by Imperium Rite or Practice ?

  • totalgit
    replied
    Every time I try to make an imbued item another question pops up.

    So I assume that when creating an imbued item the creator has access to any rote spells he knows and can use those for the free reaches in that item? creators/users (with flex reach) can only remove reaches after creation so it only matters during the creation process.

    For my example charmed item you'd need to find somebody with Exceptional Luck as a rote and Prime 4. Let's assume they have Gnosis 3 and Fate 3.

    To imbue the item they need mana equal to all the arcana used and a base of 4 successes on a Gnosis + Prime extended roll. Let us give the item a mana store of 5 (base 1 + 2 per extra success) too for a total of 6 successes needed.

    The spell the item casts will be Exceptional Luck with 1 reach for instant cast, 1 reach for advanced duration and 1 reach to swap the primary factor to duration so that when activated the item casts a instant, base potency 1 EL spell used to give the charmed condition to 1 target at touch range with a base duration of (spells arcana -1 OR creators arcana -1?) let us assume its the imbued spells arcana rating for base factors and then it will be 1 day.

    I do not think the creator has to succeed in casting the spell for it to imbue into the item, he just needs to succeed in the creation Gnosis + Prime extended roll.

    Then a user can activate the item casting the base spell on themselves with a dice pool of 2 (spells arcana) + Gnosis (possibly with a -2 to increase the duration to a week) then recast another copy taking -2 to increase its potency to 2 (can you add an additional boon to this spell? Does the spell even need to be locked to only giving the subject charmed each time? Probably not.)
    The potency 2 duration day spell will suppress the potency 1 duration week spell, but provide you with a second charmed when the first gets resolved.
    The item uses 1 mana per casting and only causes paradox from other factors since there was no overreach involved. If rotes cant be applied to imbued item creation then this item has 1 over reach and it'd be better to find somebody with fate 4+.
    Last edited by totalgit; 02-25-2020, 11:30 AM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    I thought mages have a medium connection with their spells but not the subject of those spells?
    Medium connection to the spell. Weak connection to the spell subject and any Yantras used.


    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    Spells ending when conditions resolves is p126
    My bad. It's just weird to me because that's not normally how spells work, nor does it take into account spells that have additional/multiple effects. E.g. a mage casts Exceptional Luck to get +4 to 4 rolls and the Charmed Condition, but resolves the Condition first and loses their bonus dice because the spell automatically ends.


    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    I considered multiple of the same conditions but the text from the boon section says
    I was unclear. You can't have multiple Charmed from the same spell, but you can have multiple spells that grants Charmed. Due to spell stacking, only one of these spells will grant Charmed at a time, but once one is resolved (especially if the spell ends upon resolving) then the next spell in the stack becomes active and grants Charmed. Technically, at least. I would not be surprised if this practice is banned by most groups who think of it.


    Originally posted by totalgit View Post
    Is there any real difference from taking x damage every gnosis interval and gaining x condition (if not already having it) every gnosis interval though? Gaining the condition is instantaneous, the fact that condition lingers onwards may not matter?
    If it's tied to Duration then it's by definition not an instantaneous effect (even though all spells takes effect instantaneously). The only time a Condition can be reapplied every ritual time interval is if it's Lasting, but the text on page 126 assumes that's not the case for Conditions created by spells.

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Spells only reapply their effects if the effect is instantaneous, in which case it happens every period of time equal to the mage's ritual interval. A Condition isn't instantaneous, and merely just disappears when resolved. You'd need to recast the spell in order to regain the Condition. Afaik, the spell doesn't end just because the Condition resolves. The only time a spell ends because of its own effect (rather than being cancelled, running out of duration, or outside interference), it's because the spell changes the subject so that it no longer becomes a valid subject for the spell.
    (Alternatively, just stack up a bunch of Charmed Conditions, only one is active at a time due to the spelll stacking rules, when it resolves the next becomes active, and hope your ST lets you get away with it.)
    Spells ending when conditions resolves is p126
    Conditions created with magic only last as long as the Duration factor of the spell. If the target resolves the Condition before the Duration expires, the spell ends early and the target gains a Beat as normal.
    I considered multiple of the same conditions but the text from the boon section says
    no character can have multiple instances of a Condition unless they apply to two different and specific things.
    Is there any real difference from taking x damage every gnosis interval and gaining x condition (if not already having it) every gnosis interval though? Gaining the condition is instantaneous, the fact that condition lingers onwards may not matter?

    I think that some effects are just not suited as persistent items and that is fine, having a contingent version that lasts X time and being able to recast it again is better. I mean it is counter-intuitive to create a persistent effect for spells that you know will end, right? Sos says persistent items are active until the spell's duration ends, resolving conditions also ends the spells too, so I think WoC could be used to reactive the item when it stops being active from the spell's duration ending, that or once a persistent items duration ends it just stops being an imbued item.
    Last edited by totalgit; 02-24-2020, 09:36 PM.

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  • totalgit
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    Blank. The connection is artificial and there is no relationship.
    The exception is if the mage created a connection between himself and the subject, since mages and their spell subjects automatically gain a connection and that becomes the "flavour" of the connection.

    If the connection is transfered or copied, then it still holds the "flavour" of the original two linked entities.

    If the connection is merely strengthened, then no change in "flavour".
    I thought mages have a medium connection with their spells but not the subject of those spells? You can't just cast a spell on something to then have a medium connection to that subject as that then completely nulls the point of the borrow threads spell? Having a connection to your spells is useful for things like if you relinquish them and need to sympathetically dispel them, or being able to scry on one of your spells (which yes will let you scry on the subject of the spell too but only by proxy)

    I guess my question is in the case where the mage uses Create Sympathy to make it if a player used Correspondence on the subject what would they learn about the mage on the other end of the connection.
    If they can tell by the link being blank then all they will know is that a master of space created that link. It doesn't have to be the thing at the other end that made it either though
    Last edited by totalgit; 02-24-2020, 08:51 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Spells only reapply their effects if the effect is instantaneous, in which case it happens every period of time equal to the mage's ritual interval. A Condition isn't instantaneous, and merely just disappears when resolved. You'd need to recast the spell in order to regain the Condition. Afaik, the spell doesn't end just because the Condition resolves. The only time a spell ends because of its own effect (rather than being cancelled, running out of duration, or outside interference), it's because the spell changes the subject so that it no longer becomes a valid subject for the spell.
    (Alternatively, just stack up a bunch of Charmed Conditions, only one is active at a time due to the spelll stacking rules, when it resolves the next becomes active, and hope your ST lets you get away with it.)

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  • totalgit
    replied
    How would a persistent imbued item that gave somebody a condition work after the condition is resolved? (or one that gave a certain amount of uses I suppose, what happens after those uses have been expended, is it just a useless persistent item now)

    Paranoid mage wants to use the Exceptional Luck spell from fate to make a persistent imbued item that gives him the charmed condition. He was wise to be paranoid as later he gets hit by a sniper without his mage armor up and would otherwise have taken a deadly shot but charmed means he survives and the condition gets resolved what then happens with the item?

    I seem to recall from somewhere that spells that give conditions end when the condition resolves? (can't remember where). Does the persistent spell then end but can then be reactivated using Word of Command and the item gives a new charmed condition?

    Or does this spell continually reapply the charmed condition every time its resolved, if it does reapply a condition is it at the next gnosis interval (creators, users?) or as soon as its resolved?

    Obviously, if the item above constantly reapplies charmed then its a superb item, if one needs to use words of command to reactivate it then it's less superb but still good (giving it to somebody without WoC for example) and if once the condition is resolved and WoC doesn't work its still a good one-off effect but then it's probably better to make a continent item so you can reactivate the item after the condition has resolved.
    Last edited by totalgit; 02-24-2020, 09:24 PM.

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  • Therian
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    Blank. The connection is artificial and there is no relationship.
    The exception is if the mage created a connection between himself and the subject, since mages and their spell subjects automatically gain a connection and that becomes the "flavour" of the connection.

    If the connection is transfered or copied, then it still holds the "flavour" of the original two linked entities.

    If the connection is merely strengthened, then no change in "flavour".
    I guess my question is in the case where the mage uses Create Sympathy to make it, if a player used Correspondence on the subject what would they learn about the mage on the other end of the connection.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Therian View Post


    So how do you think you would describe the mage who created the connection out of nowhere?
    Blank. The connection is artificial and there is no relationship.
    The exception is if the mage created a connection between himself and the subject, since mages and their spell subjects automatically gain a connection and that becomes the "flavour" of the connection.

    If the connection is transfered or copied, then it still holds the "flavour" of the original two linked entities.

    If the connection is merely strengthened, then no change in "flavour".

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  • Therian
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    I think it makes more sense to describe the nature of their relationship (through the perspective of the subject) rather than the subject's conscious thoughts on their relationship. For example, if the subject is being stalked by someone without knowing it and you look at their connection to their stalker, then I'd describe it as an observer, because being observed is the only way the subject has directly been "interacting" with the stalker. (The stalker as a subject would instead show "target of obsession" since that's the nature of their relationship to their victim.) It also sidesteps the problem with subjects that are objects not having any descriptors on any of their sympathetic connections.

    So how do you think you would describe the mage who created the connection out of nowhere?

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Therian View Post
    If a Mage creates transfers a sympathetic link between himself and a random person with a spell, how would that show up with Correspondence. The spell says the caster understands the connections the same way the subject thinks about them, but if the subject isn’t really aware of the mage then how would they show up?
    I think it makes more sense to describe the nature of their relationship (through the perspective of the subject) rather than the subject's conscious thoughts on their relationship. For example, if the subject is being stalked by someone without knowing it and you look at their connection to their stalker, then I'd describe it as an observer, because being observed is the only way the subject has directly been "interacting" with the stalker. (The stalker as a subject would instead show "target of obsession" since that's the nature of their relationship to their victim.) It also sidesteps the problem with subjects that are objects not having any descriptors on any of their sympathetic connections.
    Last edited by Tessie; 02-24-2020, 07:53 PM.

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  • Therian
    replied
    If a Mage creates transfers a sympathetic link between himself and a random person with a spell, how would that show up with Correspondence. The spell says the caster understands the connections the same way the subject thinks about them, but if the subject isn’t really aware of the mage then how would they show up?

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  • KaiserAfini
    replied
    Originally posted by Scriptorian View Post

    Yeah the use is marginal for Mages (especially since the active spells still count against spell control when you leave), but if you're a Proximus that wants to buff-up without spending 5 hours per spell, have a limited amount of Mana, and even one measly Paradox success ruins the spell/gift, all that free Reach would be very convenient. And a Proximus with the Astral Adept merit raises fewer questions than one with their own Demesne (even if the later sounds like it's own story-hook, hmm...).
    "The new detective is certainly an odd one, but remarkably effective and overall very sociable. Sure, she can investigate new crimes fine enough, but her greatest talent is solving cold cases.

    When she is stuck, she makes all sorts of scribbles in her office's white board. Runes and rats, graphs and thought bubbles. It has a sort of sideways logic to it....like I almost....get it. Don't bother talking to her while she is like that, she has a look that is half way between the thousand yard stare of someone who has seen too much and a person on the verge of inspiration.

    She called it a type of meditation, a dive into the unconscious mind to help parse through information more effectively that the conscious mind normally could. She says its a traditional skill in her family, which they learn in their subconscious psychology study group (Cryptopoly/Labyrinth). She says I have a knack for it and that I can give it a shot if I want, I think I just might."
    Last edited by KaiserAfini; 02-24-2020, 09:29 AM.

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  • Scriptorian
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Remember that the Oneiros is not casually accessible without a particular Merit and that Reach has negligible impact on the success or failure of a spell.
    Yeah the use is marginal for Mages (especially since the active spells still count against spell control when you leave), but if you're a Proximus that wants to buff-up without spending 5 hours per spell, have a limited amount of Mana, and even one measly Paradox success ruins the spell/gift, all that free Reach would be very convenient. And a Proximus with the Astral Adept merit raises fewer questions than one with their own Demesne (even if the later sounds like it's own story-hook, hmm...).

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Scriptorian View Post
    If it does work, it means you could use your Oneiros as a poor-man's Demesne to load up on paradox-free spells, so long as the spells themselves aren't physical. In particular, I'm picturing a Proximus using this, since Proximi need all the Reach they can get...
    Remember that the Oneiros is not casually accessible without a particular Merit and that Reach has negligible impact on the success or failure of a spell.

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