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  • Rote Skills and multiorder membership

    Greetings,


    I would like to know, what stops a mage from learning several Order's Rote Skills? A mage can be part of 2 established orders:

    Originally posted by Mage the Awakening Rulebook
    A character may normally have Status in a single
    Order. If a character works closely with a second Order, however,
    she may buy the first dot of their Status but no more, and may
    not use them for requisitions.
    So, does this status grant access to the Rote Skills? What stops me from learning even more rote skills? Mages can get access to a Mystery Cult benefits through Mystery Cult Influence, and:

    Originally posted by Mage the Awakening Rulebook

    Nameless characters do not receive
    the benefits of Order membership (including Rote
    Skills)
    , although larger Nameless Orders grant
    some of the same training; to represent these in
    the game, use the Mystery Cult Initiation Merit (p.
    106). If that Merit is used to build a Nameless
    Order, it may grant a set of three Rote specialties
    as its third-dot benefit.
    So my questions are:
    1. Is it possible then, to learn Rote Skills from 2 orders that I am currently member?
    2. If I join an order and leave for another, do I keep the order Rote skills and gain new ones, or do I keep the old ones only?
    3. Can I use the Mystery Cult Influence merit to gain a Nameless order Rote skills?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 10-04-2017, 02:13 PM.

  • #2
    No, it doesn’t grant Rote skills, you can only be in one Order at a time, Status gained in another Order is purely a mark of respect not of official sanction for learning that Order’s secrets.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
      No, it doesn’t grant Rote skills, you can only be in one Order at a time, Status gained in another Order is purely a mark of respect not of official sanction for learning that Order’s secrets.
      Wrong. Buying one dot of Status in a second Order gives you effective membership in both Orders at once. You are only limited in that you cannot use it for requisitions, so you cannoy exploit the resources of the Order you have less Status in for your convenience. However nothing stops you from learning the second Order's special abilities if you put out the necessary effort, and a single dot of Status would be normally enough to tap them.

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      • #4
        No, it’s definitely just a matter of gaining respect or you’d be able to take more than one dot of Status in the second Order. The Orders very closely guard their mystic secrets, it’s one of the reasons that Guardians infiltrating them generates such backlash if they’re found out. Rote skills are one of those secrets and you’re not authorized to learn them if you’re not actually in the Order.

        Comment


        • #5
          From a practical standpoint, it might be too difficult to internalize and use more than three Skills in your magic. Just look at Seers of the Throne. There's both a general list of Rote Skills and one list per major Ministry. The book is quite clear that you have to choose one list.
          So regardless of whether Status dots means actual membership or not I'd always rule that you can only use the Rote Skills of your primary Order. I.e. the Order that will affect the way you approach magic the most.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
            No, it’s definitely just a matter of gaining respect or you’d be able to take more than one dot of Status in the second Order. The Orders very closely guard their mystic secrets, it’s one of the reasons that Guardians infiltrating them generates such backlash if they’re found out. Rote skills are one of those secrets and you’re not authorized to learn them if you’re not actually in the Order.
            With the notable exception of Prelacies (which obviously involve much more serious loyalty issues), one dot of Status is enough to learn the mystic secrets of any Order. The limitation on one dot in Status is obviously there to prevent mages with divided loyalties from achieving a leadership position in any Order and establishing its agenda, not to stop them from learning house secrets, which per RAW they could access anyway. Moreover, RAW already prevents double-Order characters to tap the material resources of the second Order. If such characters were unable to learn special skills as well, what would be the point of getting a second Order rank in the first place ? There would be no point. So-called respect? Not worth a single Xp in pretty much any circumstances since the Diamond and the Pentacle are supposed to be an alliance in the first place (so a certain degree of respect is warranted for any member of their society in good standing) and the Orders are global but rather decentralized (so most social status issues are dealt with on a local or regional level).
            Last edited by Irioth; 10-04-2017, 04:35 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post
              From a practical standpoint, it might be too difficult to internalize and use more than three Skills in your magic. Just look at Seers of the Throne. There's both a general list of Rote Skills and one list per major Ministry. The book is quite clear that you have to choose one list.
              So regardless of whether Status dots means actual membership or not I'd always rule that you can only use the Rote Skills of your primary Order. I.e. the Order that will affect the way you approach magic the most.
              The practical difficulties of managing too many Rote Skills at once for the same character might indeed be a rather more worthwhile objection to the OP's idea than claiming Status dots do not mean actual Order membership despite RAW to the contrary and house secrets must remain inviolate.

              Comment


              • #8
                Actually there’s a really good reason to take a single dot of Status in another Order, and that’s the +1 die to any social rolls with that Order. Learning the Rote skills would be the equivalent of making a one dot requisition, because you need a Mentor to teach them to you, which the Status merit points out you can’t do.
                Last edited by Mrmdubois; 10-04-2017, 04:55 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                  Actually there’s a really good reason to take a single dot of Status in another Order, and that’s the +1 die to any social rolls with that Order. Learning the Rote skills would be the equivalent of making a one dot requisition, which the Status merit points out you can’t do.
                  The social bonus becomes utterly worthless as soon as you do any travel. For a splat whose raison d'etre and lifestyle typically involves considerable mobility to seek out mystic secrets and which has the greatest ease of access to and reason to explore the Tellurian at large among CoD supernaturals. Color me unimpressed. It may be my preference for nomad characters and globe-trotting chronicles speaking but I tend to regard any Merit strictly tied to one location not worth the paper and ink it is printed with, barring exceptional circumstances. I would not sink any Xp in Concilium Status at gunpoint. Requisition and learning skills are very different issues, one concerns allocation of material resources, the other concerns sharing of knowledge.
                  Last edited by Irioth; 10-05-2017, 01:25 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Learning anything from an Order is a requisition, because that’s the only way to get access to a Mentor or Grimoire that can teach you.

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                    • #11
                      I always thought you could use any Skill for a Rote spell, you just don't get the +1 that your Order applies to 3 Skills.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That’s what we’re talking about I believe.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mrmdubois
                          Learning anything from an Order is a requisition, because that’s the only way to get access to a Mentor or Grimoire that can teach you.
                          Why can't you just buy dots in a mentor of the appropriate order?

                          Originally posted by lbeaumanior
                          1. Is it possible then, to learn Rote Skills from 2 orders that I am currently member?
                          2. If I join an order and leave for another, do I keep the order Rote skills and gain new ones, or do I keep the old ones only?
                          3. Can I use the Mystery Cult Influence merit to gain a Nameless order Rote skills?
                          I'm going to come at these questions from a different angle. What keeps every order, including the Seers, from having access to all order based merits (not including prelacies) and rote bonuses? If these are merely techniques and skills to be learned, why couldn't a group of enterprising Mind mages learn all order based merits and rote bonuses? I assert that it's because these order based advantages are due to the symbolic weight of the respected orders. It's not just what you learn from your order's teachers, it's also the symbolic weight membership provides.

                          Given that this is true, the question is whether or not you consider a one dot status merit that provides a limited amount of access to an order sufficient symbolic weight necessary to provide order benefits. That covers the first two questions, granted by asking another, but I think the answer to this kind of question is something that is group dependent.

                          Can a Nameless order provide access to the Rote skill bonuses? If we consider this another question of symbolic weight, the answer is going to vary group to group. What does it mean to have divided loyalties? Is the symbolic weight strong enough divided between two orders? Are there edge cases, such as a order within an order that holds blasphemous ideas without compromising the essential nature of the parent order?

                          Rules as written, you can probably safely take another order's rote bonuses and order specific merit with one status dot, but I'm not sure it makes sense in the larger context of the world as I see it.

                          Short answer: Depends on the group and the current game.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Having Status 1 in a second Order does not represent membership in that Order. As sated in the text that you already quoted, it represents a close working relationship. Close working relationship =/= membership. So, no, you cannot and whether or not it's a Nameless Order is irrelevant.
                            Last edited by Gallus; Yesterday, 08:14 AM.


                            SWTOR Referal: http://www.swtor.com/r/JQ2nqy

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Flux View Post
                              Why can't you just buy dots in a mentor of the appropriate order?
                              You could, but a Mentor is under no obligation to teach you everything they know, and would be censured by his Order if he taught you their secrets thus neutering his effectiveness as a Mentor.

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