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  • #31
    My players found spellcasting a lot easier in 2ed than 1ed, everything is more streamlined.
    Making every spell instant but no free reach, is a nice hack.

    Mage Sight might be bothersome, put it´s rewarding imho. I pointed out the difference by these simple sentences:
    - Mage Sight - give you answers for questions you did not ask.
    - Knowing/Unweiling - gives you an answer (singular) for what you asked.


    Emigrated successfullly from the "old" to the "new" sandboxy World of Darkness. Mostly playing Requiem, Awakening and the Lost.
    Likes cheesecake

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    • #32
      First of all, those of you with super involved players - congratulations.

      My experience in the D&D world we live in:

      1. Players won't read the book. You'll be lucky if they read their Order and Path sections.
      2. Players do expect Instant spells as their frame of reference is D&D and Doctor Strange.
      3. 2e IS more complex than 1e for instant spells. Not to mention that things that used to be spells like Mage Sight and Mage Armor are now attainments.

      In my last Chronicle I found the players were very good sports and were really trying to get a handle on the system, but after explaining Reach, Spell Factors, Yantras etc... and then explaining the difference between Spirits, Ghosts, Goetia and then moving on to the new Mage Sight rules their heads were exploding. They almost cried when they found out the answer to the question: "What's this Legacy thing on my sheet?"

      Anyway, there's been some useful suggestions in this threads, so thanks to those who acknowledge the issue.

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      • #33
        You can basically boil down spell factors into 5 questions: How Fast? How Far? How Strong? How Long? and How Big?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Johnny Awesome View Post
          They almost cried when they found out the answer to the question: "What's this Legacy thing on my sheet?"
          Yeah, as a fan of Mage I love Legacies as a concept and definitely think they add a lot to the gameline. However I too found they can be the straw that breaks the camels back with new players. I am fairly sympathetic about this, your average player is already trying to deal with the pretty hefty and specific symbolism and theory that comes with choosing a Path and a Order, coming up with a unique Obsessions and Aspirations, as well as doing the important work of making a character concept that excites them and feels real and human. Trying to add a discussion about Legacies onto that seems like playing with fire, I have let the subject lie pretty fallow with my lot (apart from one of my old hands, who is desperate to join the Blank Badges), and instead intend to "Show not tell" by incorporating some legacy themed plotlines in my next few arcs.

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          • #35
            Well as far as legacies go....

            Most PCs don't start out with them, so you can usually just slowly introduce them into the story when you feel the characters are ready for them. By the time they want to join legacies they'll have seen a bunch of NPCs who were subtly showing off their legacy and a few who did so not so subtly (such as one NPC from my game who took the formal dress code of an important consilium meeting as an opportunity to show off the traditional garb of his legacy - walking into the room with a long coat and sunglasses while everyone else was sporting robes and mystical designs ).

            There are also mentor figures showing off what they can accomplish with their legacies, etc. By now out of four players (and rouighly ~ 2.5 stories into the campaign) three of the four are considering taking up legacies, two of them at least seemed pretty excited by the prospect. The fourth player who has the least planned in that direction is ironically the only player who actually was familiar to the game prior to this campaign.

            So all together legacies are in my experience not too much of a problem. You don't need to deal with it in the beginning and interest on the playerside will occur naturally when you show them off doing cool things via NPCs. The only problem I see is that legacies frankly aren't very capable of doing cool things you couldn't just have done with an improvised spells RAW, but that's probably not a discussion for this thread.


            My Mage 2e Homebrew

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            • #36
              Yeah, legacies are more limited than spells. That's the payoff for the "no paradox ever" thing.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Elfive View Post
                Yeah, legacies are more limited than spells. That's the payoff for the "no paradox ever" thing.
                Well since you're limited to free reaches there wouldn't be any paradox to begin with. Unless you're counting sleeper witnesses, but there the lack of quiescence is arguably more important. My gripe is less with the lack of flexibility of legacies and more with the fact that they don't give you a thing you're especially good at. I'd like legacies to buck the system a bit, enable stuff you couldn't usually just pull off with a spell. You can see some examples of that in my homebrew thread. As it is I've seen a few players go at legacies with the attitude of "well lets get one level in here for the extra ruling arcanum and the free hallow, I don't really care about the attainments." Sure that's just a player ignoring rich fluff, but there should be some substance to the fluff aswell. Mages shape their very soul to adopt a legacy, they don't do that just for some extra Mana, they do it to dedicate themselves to a particular kind of mystery they could never explore in this depth otherwise!

                That said I'll stop posting about this here now as it's not the topic of this thread, maybe I'll open a thread of its own concerning legacies and how they might be improved upon in time.


                My Mage 2e Homebrew

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                • #38
                  Legacy attainments don't take up spell control is the main draw for me. This allows you to maintain a set of buffs persistently without draining spell control, or keep multiple instances of an attainment running simultaneously on different subjects.

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                  • #39
                    Yeah. I generally paper over Legacies for at least a few stories now. Best to leave it tucked away until people understand the system better.

                    I'm trying to put together some hand outs that will help with system complexity issues. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

                    The reality is that those "joke" flowcharts regarding Awakened magic that are floating around out there aren't actually wrong about how complex the decision tree is for casting a spell in this game. I'm going to try to boil it down to the essentials and go from there.

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                    • #40
                      How often do you use down n dirty casting? Is it something you use alot?

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                      • #41
                        Something that might be useful across all CofD lines (and could work out for some other systems as well) is to leave each player tasked with knowing one sub-system by heart so:

                        A is responsible for knowing everything about Mage Sight
                        B is responsible for knowing all about Crea-Thaum
                        C is responsible for knowing all about Nimbuses, Summoning and Idk, Social Maneuvering
                        D gets Chase and Combat rules

                        While the ST is supposed to know a bit of everything, having a player specialize in a subset of rules might help speed up things and allow for less book-keeping.

                        (Provided the ST doesn't want to wing most stuff, but then, why play a particular system... but this would be an entirely different discussion...)


                        Historian ~ www.cronistasdastrevasbr.com

                        I currently ST a... MtAW 2e campaign called "Axis Mundi - Si Vis Pacem"

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                        • #42
                          It's an interesting idea, but I find that it doesn't work at my table. LOL I even forgot about Nimbus mechanics. YAMSS (yet another Mage sub system).

                          The down and dirty rules are ok, but starting characters can't do much with it given the low dice pools unless you allow Reach, Yantras etc... in which case it's not that quick and you may as well use the actual spell rules.

                          Btw, I know some people think I'm being difficult, but these problem are real with adoption of Mage by the RPG gamer at large.

                          Unless we want this game to be restricted to being played by systems analysts with a 140+ IQ, I believe we need to consider pretty heavily how we teach the game to new players.

                          For instance, the next group I'm teaching are players aged 12, 15, 17, 29, 47 that have only ever played D&D before.
                          Last edited by Johnny Awesome; 10-18-2017, 11:33 AM.

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                          • #43
                            If you think Nimbus is distracting, keep it purely in the narrative. Ignore NImbus tilts (they only come up for other mages watching you with mage sight while you cast anyway, flaring your nimbus has really disadventageous mechanics) and just use Nimbus as a narrative to give your PCs a feeling for the themes of an NPC when they watch him/her cast something. And long term nimbus of course.... long term nimbus is a delicious story hook.


                            My Mage 2e Homebrew

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                            • #44
                              I will agree that Nimbus Tilts seem overly fiddly.


                              SWTOR Referal: http://www.swtor.com/r/JQ2nqy

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Johnny Awesome View Post
                                It's an interesting idea, but I find that it doesn't work at my table. LOL I even forgot about Nimbus mechanics. YAMSS (yet another Mage sub system).

                                The down and dirty rules are ok, but starting characters can't do much with it given the low dice pools unless you allow Reach, Yantras etc... in which case it's not that quick and you may as well use the actual spell rules.

                                Btw, I know some people think I'm being difficult, but these problem are real with adoption of Mage by the RPG gamer at large.

                                Unless we want this game to be restricted to being played by systems analysts with a 140+ IQ, I believe we need to consider pretty heavily how we teach the game to new players.

                                For instance, the next group I'm teaching are players aged 12, 15, 17, 29, 47 that have only ever played D&D before.

                                I've played with two separate groups (one completely inexperienced with tabletop and another from D&D.) Neither of them read the book. The game with the inexperienced session I discontinued because no one wanted to read anything (this is not a fault of Mage) - because while they were intrigued by the concept, they couldn't get into sifting through the tome to understand their character or the rules of the world (this miiiiiiiiight be the fault of Mage.)

                                The "sifting through the tome" is a half-and-half sentiment. I appreciate the level of information and detail in the corebook and supplements, but I also dislike how certain things are written. Sometimes it feels like I need to synchronize with the writer before I can even understand what is being disclosed. While nowhere near as laborious as some of the government or legal documents I regularly parse, they sometimes remind me of that feeling when arguments are presented and you think you understand them but then you need to re-read the document 7 more times to appreciate the nuances so you don't sound like a tit when you try to restate the argument.

                                My D&D group is used to being told stuff like: What's your AC? Roll to hit. Roll damage. You can't do that, doesn't really work that way. You can try with disadvantage.

                                Essentially, the DM has soundbyte responses to many D&D questions, particularly with regard to combat and actions. Players instantly get used to perception checks, diplomacy, dungeoneering, etc. This is even more evident when you consider the entire "social combat" and "doors" concept of CofD.

                                To that end, down&dirty combat is probably easiest to pull off for D&D players because it probably feels as off the cuff as roll 1d20, roll damage. Boom. Whatever. Moving on to the next round or the fight is over and the story continues.

                                I want to note that I love Mage (especially 2e) infinitely more than D&D (not to say D&D is bad.) I just think I'm the type of person who would know more about the rules of Mage because I sought out a game like Mage. You essentially need to have inspired, passionate, interested players - or need to motivate them to become that way.

                                I, admittedly, do not have everything committed to memory so even I stumble when trying to recall things. I need to get comfortable with tossing rules aside for convenience and dramatic effect instead of trying to recite every rule verbatim. The book tells you to be a little free form if its more fun or convenient. The book even advocates abandoning the rules almost wholesale if it leads to a more fun experience with the product. They made a product and suggest ways we can enjoy it, but ultimately they assure us we ultimately know what is best for us and our groups.



                                Previous DMs I've had do this all the time when, for whatever reason, they change major characteristics of races or just flat out ignore entire regions of the map or gods. They gloss over what may constitute rolls and checks for expediency, they sometimes extend critical moments to give players time to work out a problem, etc.

                                I'd be much more worried about a group of systems analysts with 140+ IQ that want me to follow every rule in the book to the letter - with no freedom to interpret or gloss. That would be a nightmare, and I actually hesitate inviting certain known D&D powergamers into the mix because they do expect their games to play out exactly as the rules they've bothered to read have said.

                                After all, to them, why bother reading all the rules if ST can just ignore them whenever?




                                EDIT: Another remedy may be to learn the rules so well that you can reliably coax intent out of players. Mage is so demanding for the ST that I'm thinking of writing up a test for myself to check whether I can recall or approximate without so much as glancing at the book.

                                Players use Imagos to tell the ST what they want to do. ST can use their wealth of knowledge to either home in on what that loopy idea would look like in spell factors, practices, arcana - or suggest spells or modifications that are close enough.

                                I figure if I can reliably, within 5-10 seconds respond to any spell suggestion with exact parameters or really good "approximate" but exact answers, then I'm golden and the players get to experience the freedom Mage affords. In time they may learn the system or just memorize my antics.
                                Last edited by kryptonitekrusher; 10-18-2017, 08:23 PM.


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