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Soul Marks and other supernaturals

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  • Soul Marks and other supernaturals

    How would Soul Marks read other supernaturals (werewolves, vampires, etc)? The spell works by examining the soul, but other splats don't have souls per RAW (unless I am confused). Yet the description of the spell specifically states that it can determine if a subject is supernatural. I suppose that could just meant it detects that mages and minor splats like ghouls are supernatural, but can the mage distinguish between a human suffering from soul loss and something that normally doesn't have a soul?

  • #2
    The other splats have souls, their souls are just altered. Unsure where your rules as written said otherwise but it doesn't particularly matter.

    Except for Prometheans, who are trying to get souls.
    Last edited by nofather; 11-01-2017, 07:02 PM.

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    • #3
      Sin-eaters also do not have Souls (as of dev comments about 2e at least).


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      • #4
        Originally posted by nofather View Post
        The other splats have souls, their souls are just altered. Unsure where your rules as written said otherwise but it doesn't particularly matter.

        Except for Prometheans, who are trying to get souls.
        I thought it was a given at this point. I could sweart that I had read that non-humans other than Mages (if mages even count as non-human, I don't think they do), don't have souls. Upon reflection it is only Beasts and Sin Eaters for whom I can remember this specifically being said - for the other items I guess it was an interpretation that became an assumption.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Newes View Post
          I thought it was a given at this point. I could sweart that I had read that non-humans other than Mages (if mages even count as non-human, I don't think they do), don't have souls. Upon reflection it is only Beasts and Sin Eaters for whom I can remember this specifically being said - for the other items I guess it was an interpretation that became an assumption.
          You might be thinking of an Oneiros. Only mages and humans with Integrity have those. But the others have souls. Beasts don't really seem soulless, their souls are 'devoured' by a Horror but the Horror takes its place.

          I'm reasonably sure at some place first edition explained what the other supernatural souls looked like to mages, though I couldn't tell you which book or books it was in.
          Last edited by nofather; 11-01-2017, 08:51 PM.

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          • #6
            Demons also do not possess souls and generally dont care about having them. Their Primium does everything a soul does and more for them. I would say that the Primium probably can't be removed as it is also the seat of their consciousness (souls aren't in COD) and their power stat.
            So we have Prometheans, Sin-Eaters, Beasts and Demons who don't have souls. Vampires have the Beast and Mummies have their Sehkem. I am not to sure what changlings and werewolves have but I believe the Hedge tends to rip the souls away doesn't it?
            So Newes is kinda of right. All the other major templates either have something instead of a soul or heavily altered soul. I would say death should show that there is something there since they don't have a gaping hole where the souls should be but not necessarily tell them what the other supernatural is without some research, conjunctional arcana and prior encounters with that particular type. At least that is how I would play it.
            Last edited by Margul; 11-02-2017, 04:20 AM.

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            • #7
              It might be conducive to this discussion to define the term soul. Humans and mages are the only ones that have human souls. What most other splats have instead is something that fills kinda the same purpose, but whether those things can be said to be souls or not is up for interpretation. But I kinda agree with Margul how to deal with these soul equivalents in relation with Soul Marks. It'd probably require an additional Reach tailored to the type of supernatural creature, and potentially a conjunctional Arcanum (Spirit for werewolves, for example).


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              • #8
                It just tells you if the subject is a supernatural being, not what sort. That could just be a 404 - soul not found error.

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                • #9
                  Changelings still have their souls, they are just torn up. Similar with Deviants.

                  Werewolves have a Soul-like thing that is more Spirit like.

                  As Elfive said, the spell tells you if they are supernatural, so any modified or missing soul would ping that.


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                  • #10
                    That said an actual missing soul would fall under the "persistent conditions" thing, so perhaps a supernatural quasi-soul is more of a garbled mess or something.

                    The other thing to consider is that most of the features of a soul are actually features of the container. They'd presumably persist in some fashion even as a supernatural.

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                    • #11
                      I think I would initially register souls as Awakened, Sleeper or Other in a Mage game, but would allow that Other category to be sub-categorized with research and experience.

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