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what is the cause of wisdom?

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  • what is the cause of wisdom?

    for the record i'll admit to knowing very little about awakening so forgive me if the answer is obvious.
    so.. given that magic is not sentient and the closest thing to God are the 10 little demiurges who would probably see stealing souls as virtues to be applauded... from whence come the mechanical benefits and drawbacks of wisdom? who or what punishes you for using magic in a "wrong" way?

  • #2
    The Mysterium holds out that magic is alive and is on some level self-directed, so it could be from that.

    In practice though you’re essentially being punished by the Abyss. Magic has to be pulled across the Abyss from the Supernal to the Fallen, and if you don’t keep a tight leash on your magic the translation across these different realities loses fidelity, and the corruption of the magic is where the Abyss can creep in and get at not only your magic, but you as well.

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    • #3
      Whenever you read “Wisdom,” substitute it for “Self-Control over your Magic.”

      The Abyss punishing you for Unwise magic is in someway right, but you might as well say that Fire punishes you for putting your hands in it or setting your room ablaze. All the benefits of high Wisdom? It’s no reward; it’s just the logical consequences of being good at containing the magical nuclear reactor that is yourself from going havoc. The downsides of low Wisdom? It’s no punishment; it’s the logical consequences of zero prudence in using your magic, where your magic slowly leaks out of control because you let it run amok too many times.

      It’s a self-reinforcing mechanism. Be Wise and control your magic, and your magic becomes easier to control. Be Hubristic and let your magic run wild, and your magic becomes untamed and unleashed.


      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
        The Mysterium holds out that magic is alive and is on some level self-directed, so it could be from that.

        In practice though you’re essentially being punished by the Abyss. Magic has to be pulled across the Abyss from the Supernal to the Fallen, and if you don’t keep a tight leash on your magic the translation across these different realities loses fidelity, and the corruption of the magic is where the Abyss can creep in and get at not only your magic, but you as well.

        "tight leash on your magic" would imply,say that it hurts you if you don't use rotes or are not subtle ( and admittedly to an extend that's true) all things that can even i can have metaphysical explanations for. other people have a seed of the abyss on their souls, rotes bring a bit of supernal reality here,etc
        but here it punishes you for, essentially being evil. there is such a thing as careful evil people in this world.

        remind me again, the abyss is that place that is a non-place, indescribable and as far from the truth as you can go right?..hmm, awfully considerate of it to punish me for putting my neighbour Bob on fire. standing up for the little like that
        my point here is that to me it seems a bit arbitrary as if the writers were just hell-bent on giving every splat a morality system for fairness sake.

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        • #5
          Wisdom has little to nothing to do with good or evil, right or wrong. I don’t know why people keep thinking it does.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
            Wisdom has little to nothing to do with good or evil, right or wrong. I don’t know why people keep thinking it does.
            i don't have access to the second edition.. but as far as the first one is concerned... we're reading the same chart right?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mark View Post
              i don't have access to the second edition.. but as far as the first one is concerned... we're reading the same chart right?
              Yeah, you can make the argument, that 1e made a morality statement, but you didn’t clarify that you were talking about 1e, and most people have moved on from it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mark View Post
                i don't have access to the second edition.. but as far as the first one is concerned... we're reading the same chart right?
                The majority moved on to 2E. Unlike WoD, whose setting assumptions and mechanics are different between editions to the point there’s substantial need to cherry pick between the stuff you want/need between editions, there’s not much need outside of personal preference to keep CofD 1E stuff, be it for fluff or crunch.


                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                  Yeah, you can make the argument, that 1e made a morality statement, but you didn’t clarify that you were talking about 1e, and most people have moved on from it.
                  i see, my bad then.

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                  • #10
                    Wisdom is the mechanical representation of the strength of your will over your mystical being. It comes from you owning yourself.


                    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                    Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                      Wisdom has little to nothing to do with good or evil, right or wrong. I don’t know why people keep thinking it does.
                      With all due respect, there actually are a few elements of good v. evil in Wisdom. I think that "binding a spirit ... to act counter to its interests, altering its nature long-term, or binding it to a task all risk degeneration, as does deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury" have less to do with self control, and more to do with morality of violating people. Deliberately doing something with clinical precision feels like it should be falling under control rather than not.

                      Virtue and Vice tie into the matter as well; "A character’s Virtue can add a die to the pool, if the act embodied hubris, but in defense of that Virtue. The character may very well understand and see the consequences of her actions, but she stands by them because she truly, fundamentally believes her actions are righteous. On the other hand, following a Vice as an Act of Hubris is similar to an Obsession; it removes a die from the pool as your character indulges in what she believes is a moral failing."

                      So, all in all, there are some elements that feel less like control-over-magic and more about moralizing. When you have things like this, it muddies the water.

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                      • #12
                        @MCN Your first paragraph is the same tired old argument we’ve seen before, you’re drawing from a list of editable examples and treating them like they’re set in stone realities for every Mage at every table which is complete bunk.

                        Now, your second paragraph, that’s actually interesting and new. That doesn’t actually indicate that Wisdom is moral in the usual sense though, you could have Kimdness as your Vice and lose Wisdom from healing a Sleeper kid in the hospital.

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                        • #13
                          I'm going to leave this here in the hopes that we can skip these arguments, this time:
                          http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-wisdom-issues

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                          • #14
                            To the OP; Wisdom is similar to the Roads/Paths of Enlightenment in Masquerade. You know how when a vampire on a Road/Path does something moral in the eyes of humans/Humanity, he's doing it out of a completely different reason and rationale? Same here. Any acts of Wisdom/Hubris that appear good/evil are exactly that; appearances. The reasoning behind them is still about "owning yourself," as ArcaneArts puts it there.

                            Originally posted by MCN View Post
                            With all due respect, there actually are a few elements of good v. evil in Wisdom. I think that "binding a spirit ... to act counter to its interests, altering its nature long-term, or binding it to a task all risk degeneration, as does deliberate and premeditated murder and violence that leaves its victim with long-term injury" have less to do with self control, and more to do with morality of violating people. Deliberately doing something with clinical precision feels like it should be falling under control rather than not.
                            I see that you're leaving out how killing someone in a fit of rage is a worse Wisdom "sin" than premeditated murder is. Which wouldn't make sense if Wisdom was based on morality; killing someone accidentally being more "evil" than carefully planning to kill someone? Of course it doesn't make sense, because Wisdom isn't about morality. It's still about self-control.

                            You may be curious, then, why is murder even a Wisdom "sin" in the first place. That's because a murder has much more fallout than anybody can expect or handle, no matter how careful they are. Same reasoning with forcing a sapient being to act against its interests / altering its nature long-term / binding it to a task. Such gross acts of domination are bound to have consequences and fallout, not all of which even mages can keep in their hands. Hence, the lack of control.

                            Virtue and Vice tie into the matter as well; "A character’s Virtue can add a die to the pool, if the act embodied hubris, but in defense of that Virtue. The character may very well understand and see the consequences of her actions, but she stands by them because she truly, fundamentally believes her actions are righteous. On the other hand, following a Vice as an Act of Hubris is similar to an Obsession; it removes a die from the pool as your character indulges in what she believes is a moral failing."
                            On Virtue and Vice. Note how on Virtue, it's described as what the character believes as righteous. Not what she believes to be good in a moral sense, nor what people tell her is good, nor what conventional morality says is good. One example - a Mystagogue mind-controlling someone to divulge all secrets he knows. She has Curious as a Virtue. She gets the bonus via Virtue to her Wisdom degeneration roll. Same thing with Vice. It's what she believes to be her own moral failing, and thus a weakness of her character, not what is objectively evil. In fact, Vices aren't evil at all in 2E, remember? Moral failings, not immorality.

                            I reiterate my point; Goodness isn't the purpose of Wisdom. Goodness is a happy side-effect.
                            Last edited by 21C Hermit; 12-23-2017, 10:21 AM. Reason: adding few words to clarity something


                            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                              I see that you're leaving out how killing someone in a fit of rage is a worse Wisdom "sin" than premeditated murder is.
                              Manslaughter is a wisdom sin because it represents a loss of control. That has no bearing on making a calm, rational judgement about murder in this case. Bringing it up is nothing more than a red herring on your part.


                              You may be curious, then, why is murder even a Wisdom "sin" in the first place. That's because a murder has much more fallout than anybody can expect or handle, no matter how careful they are.
                              By that rationale, saving someone's life should be wisdom sins. Inducting people into mystery cults should be a wisdom sin for the fall out that causes. They're CULTS for goodness sake.

                              There's a million ways you affect people's lives with your actions, both positive and negative. And yet, only the negative are called out. Why?

                              On Virtue and Vice. Note how on Virtue, it's described as what the character believes as righteous. Not what she believes to be good in a moral sense, nor what people tell her is good, nor what conventional morality says is good. One example - a Mystagogue mind-controlling someone to divulge all secrets he knows. She has Curious as a Virtue. She gets the bonus via Virtue to her Wisdom degeneration roll. Same thing with Vice. It's what she believes to be her own moral failing, and thus a weakness of her character, not what is objectively evil. In fact, Vices aren't evil at all in 2E, remember? Moral failings, not immorality.
                              So its a personal moral code instead of universal. STILL ABOUT MORALS.


                              But whatever. This is why that people say there's morality built into Wisdom. You disagree, sure. But there are solid reasons for people to feel that way about it. I'm done here, though, so tata.

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