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what is the cause of wisdom?

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  • #16
    I saw things like murder being considered as Acts of Hubris regardless of how much you plan because feeling like you have the right to decide whether someone else lives or dies is super hubristic.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by MCN View Post
      By that rationale, saving someone's life should be wisdom sins. Inducting people into mystery cults should be a wisdom sin for the fall out that causes. They're CULTS for goodness sake.

      There's a million ways you affect people's lives with your actions, both positive and negative. And yet, only the negative are called out. Why?
      Same tired old argument gets the same old response, sometimes saving a life -is- an AoH. Your fixation on a list of examples that can be customized, while forgetting the customization part, is truly stellar though.

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      • #18
        One of the nice things of saying everything I feel I need to say is that I have already said all I feel I need to say.

        In case people haven't caught it before and it proves useful to the conversation.


        Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
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        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

          Same tired old argument gets the same old response, sometimes saving a life -is- an AoH. Your fixation on a list of examples that can be customized, while forgetting the customization part, is truly stellar though.
          wait, saving lives really can be an AoH?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mark View Post
            wait, saving lives really can be an AoH?
            In 2e any action could potentially be an AoH. It’s not an excuse to “gotcha” your players, but yeah there’s a lot of territory to explore.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
              To the OP; Wisdom is similar to the Roads/Paths of Enlightenment in Masquerade. You know how when a vampire on a Road/Path does something moral in the eyes of humans/Humanity, he's doing it out of a completely different reason and rationale? Same here. Any acts of Wisdom/Hubris that appear good/evil are exactly that; appearances. The reasoning behind them is still about "owning yourself," as ArcaneArts puts it there.



              I see that you're leaving out how killing someone in a fit of rage is a worse Wisdom "sin" than premeditated murder is. Which wouldn't make sense if Wisdom was based on morality; killing someone accidentally being more "evil" than carefully planning to kill someone? Of course it doesn't make sense, because Wisdom isn't about morality. It's still about self-control.

              You may be curious, then, why is murder even a Wisdom "sin" in the first place. That's because a murder has much more fallout than anybody can expect or handle, no matter how careful they are. Same reasoning with forcing a sapient being to act against its interests / altering its nature long-term / binding it to a task. Such gross acts of domination are bound to have consequences and fallout, not all of which even mages can keep in their hands. Hence, the lack of control.



              On Virtue and Vice. Note how on Virtue, it's described as what the character believes as righteous. Not what she believes to be good in a moral sense, nor what people tell her is good, nor what conventional morality says is good. One example - a Mystagogue mind-controlling someone to divulge all secrets he knows. She has Curious as a Virtue. She gets the bonus via Virtue to her Wisdom degeneration roll. Same thing with Vice. It's what she believes to be her own moral failing, and thus a weakness of her character, not what is objectively evil. In fact, Vices aren't evil at all in 2E, remember? Moral failings, not immorality.

              I reiterate my point; Goodness isn't the purpose of Wisdom. Goodness is a happy side-effect.

              i think i get it better now. so wisdom is like ascension/s madness,clarity and jhor in one package with their importance magnified due to the setting. makes more sense now.
              the whole mad thing at 0 i mean. but what still seems wierd is that unwise(and for the most part "evil" or dangerous) mages get struck by paradox more intensely. is the abyss drawn by corrruption in the soul? do you stand like a magnet or something like that with a big HIT ME sign on your butt? do the oracles manage to force this out of mercy for unwise mages's victim>?

              . if anything this seems like a good thing,strange for the abyss. i mean if paradox had existed before atlantis you'd think that a soon to be exarch or two would have been fried before they could build any ladder.
              in short i'm interested in the deeper metaphysics of the mystical effects of low/high wisdom

              also what happens if a mage is so phenomenally powerful that his actions on anyone outside his power level, really have no consequence?

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              • #22
                The Abyss tries to slip out through every Mage’s spells, there’s a certain limit inside of which a Mage can completely exclude the Abyss, and outside of which a Mage starts losing control and starts running the risk that the Abyss will slip in through their spell.

                There are two ways to deal with this, one you contain it and take the hit from the Abyss yourself. This is a better option for high Wisdom Mages as their higher Wisdom gives them a longer period of time to resolve the resulting Paradox Condition before it lapses and has to be Scoured out.

                The other way is to unleash the Paradox, this results in a less powerful expression of your magic, but the Paradox otherwise never affects you personally. This is the better option for low Wisdom Mages as it doesn’t turn them into a lightning rod for the Abyss, and means they don’t have to deal with a very short duration Paradox Condition.

                High Wisdom Mages contain and control their magic and minimize the risk to others posed by the Abyss through their magic.

                Low Wisdom Mages don’t bother with that and cut loose because it’s not going to bite them in the ass personally.

                The Abyss doesn’t hit one harder than the other, it’s just their way of handling it is different.

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                • #23
                  I seriously don't understand how you can call someone Wise without implying good or righteousness. Wisdom might not align with the morality you would apply to real world situations, but it does entail morality in game and pretending it doesn't just makes it more confusing than it has to be.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                    I seriously don't understand how you can call someone Wise without implying good or righteousness. Wisdom might not align with the morality you would apply to real world situations, but it does entail morality in game and pretending it doesn't just makes it more confusing than it has to be.
                    I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to wrap your head around. *Shrugs.*

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                    • #25
                      The problem is that both camps on this subject are kind of right. I mean, even in the real world, wisdom by itself does not actually signify a moral virtue, but those who possess the soundness of action informed by a wide and deep understanding of things are often not people we associate with crassly immoral action and demeanor. Being wise is not to be moral, but it is to be the sort of person who, at a minimum, does not perform immoral acts without reason or place, which is itself something of a moral state. Wisdom a straddling virtue on the subject.

                      I mean, ask me to pick a side here, a wise man is not a good man. Wisdom is not morally good or righteous. It is a virtue of perspective, and there's just no value judgment you can heap onto seeing the whole of the picture and acting in accordance with as much of it as you can while fulfilling your will. But people with that sort of perspective perhaps do find it easier to make decisions that, in the end, are the best accomodations for their will and the world, while those who do not incline that way seem, from the outside, to be lacking in the very virtue.

                      Of course, history is full of murderers and heinous actors hailed for their wisdom. In the end, there's a perspective problem in that outside perceptions of wisdom tend to skew towards what society deems acceptable, with the divine order of gods being dictated by those who's only real virtue was victory.
                      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 12-24-2017, 02:30 PM.


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                      Work Blog Coming Soon
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey

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                      • #26
                        Putting questions of morality and in game philosophy aside, mechanically Wisdom and its fellow traits from the other lines attempt to represent how well the character understands and relates to the greater portion of humanity. A Vampire becomes overwhelmed by the inhuman Beast that empowers him, a Werewolf pushes too far into the alien world of Spirits and a Mage finds that the rest of the world can't grasp his perfectly rational view of an insane world.
                        ​It's a game mechanic designed to foster role play, not a conceited attempt to quantify good and evil, morality or sanity.
                        As such it provides an incentive (ie; Punishment) to try and keep it or provides dramatic elements that can make breaking it more interesting.
                        For Mage using the Abyss as that incentive might be argued to have less to do with the given moral examples and more to do with losing control of one's obsessions.
                        ​Or should I say getting so lost in one's obsessions that you lose touch with the unimportant consequences of whatever you do to chase them.
                        Last edited by 2ptTakrill; 12-24-2017, 11:17 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Real world definitions of Wisdom actually relate DIRECTLY to morality: it's the knowledge of both right and wrong, of what to do and when, and what not to do. From Socrates to Confucius, you'll find Wisdom touted as virtue in itself. Being "Wise" IS being good, or at least better than those who are not. And that carries on even in game. Wise Mages are better than the unwise and The Mad. They might not be "Good People" according to your personal real life morals, but being Wise in game is Good and being Mad is definitely A Bad Thing. That's the whole point of the Guardians of the Veil, and yes, even the part when they are awful people is the point: they justify the shit they do because it's for the greater good. How is any of that not about moral or right and wrong? It being complex and subject to different interpretations doesn't make it amoral. Kind of the opposite.

                          Just because you don't agree with an ethical framework doesn't make it not about morality.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                            Real world definitions of Wisdom actually relate DIRECTLY to morality
                            Real-world understandings of wisdom are strongly associated by consensus with morality, which is not the same thing as knowing, understanding, and acting with attention to the framework in which your practical existence has consequences beyond what you might intend. Things that negatively impact your Wisdom may relate to morally dodgy behavior, but that doesn't make the measure of your self-control inherently a gauge of your moral fiber.

                            You don't contrast the Mad to mages with high Wisdom if you expect to get any useful insight on the difference between low and high Wisdom, because the Mad have stepped off of the scale entirely — narratively the fact that they've lost all Wisdom is a consequence of their obsession, not the cause. You might as well say that the game posits lack of a valid driver's license as the reason car accidents happen.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                              The Abyss tries to slip out through every Mage’s spells, there’s a certain limit inside of which a Mage can completely exclude the Abyss, and outside of which a Mage starts losing control and starts running the risk that the Abyss will slip in through their spell.

                              There are two ways to deal with this, one you contain it and take the hit from the Abyss yourself. This is a better option for high Wisdom Mages as their higher Wisdom gives them a longer period of time to resolve the resulting Paradox Condition before it lapses and has to be Scoured out.

                              The other way is to unleash the Paradox, this results in a less powerful expression of your magic, but the Paradox otherwise never affects you personally. This is the better option for low Wisdom Mages as it doesn’t turn them into a lightning rod for the Abyss, and means they don’t have to deal with a very short duration Paradox Condition.

                              High Wisdom Mages contain and control their magic and minimize the risk to others posed by the Abyss through their magic.

                              Low Wisdom Mages don’t bother with that and cut loose because it’s not going to bite them in the ass personally.

                              The Abyss doesn’t hit one harder than the other, it’s just their way of handling it is different.

                              yeah but why do said high wisdom mages get higher time to resolve paradox? in sort from where does the power of resisting paradox better comes? or alternatively the curse of not resisting it as well due to being a professional paid assassin. do you get punished by plato's form of good? did it exist before the destruction of the celestial ladder? in sort from where does the "mojo" come?

                              also as i understand the word wisdom it is the opposite of irrationality. in sort attacking russia during winter is not wise.. but burning moscow could be, to use a real world example. given that magic is something you experience and part of who you are and not do by pressing button it would make sense for, say jack the killer or the lunatic doctor mengele to be unable to control his magic... but not for jigsaw herbert west or dr.frankenstein(well at least not due to their experiments alone anyway) .

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mark View Post
                                yeah but why do said high wisdom mages get higher time to resolve paradox? in sort from where does the power of resisting paradox better comes? or alternatively the curse of not resisting it as well due to being a professional paid assassin. do you get punished by plato's form of good? did it exist before the destruction of the celestial ladder? in sort from where does the "mojo" come?
                                The Abyss is bugs in the code of reality aggregated into a bunch of unreal worlds that destroy meaning. Higher Wisdom means you don't let those bugs work their way into the core of your magic as quickly and lower Wisdom means you haven't got the baseline level of care to hold them off for as long should you choose to confine them to your person. Low Wisdom means your magic gets buggy more easily if you overstep your known limits and don't smother your chances of error in liquid Truth.


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