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  • Path to Jerusalem CoW

    Hey everyone,

    So, I wanted some thoughts on a spell that was spoiled through Dave Brookshaw's awesomeness regarding the Signs of Sorcery Book. According to the information from the 2E Core here is the information regarding Focused Mage Sight and CoW:
    If the mage employs Scrutiny on a subject protected by some kind of magical concealment, the Storyteller should use the same metric as Active Mage Sight for determining whether a Clash of Will is appropriate. If a Clash of Wills is appropriate, the mage’s player receives the rote quality on the roll.
    And then there is the spell description as provided by the spoiler:
    Path to Jerusalem (Prime ••)
    Practice: Veiling
    Primary Factor: Potency
    Withstand: Opacity
    Suggested Rote Skills: Expression, Larceny, Subterfuge
    This spell, named for the labyrinth at the Cathedral of Chartres, has been variously used by mages attempting to conceal their involvement in illicit activities, frame their rivals, or simply stymie other occult investigators. Add the spell's Potency to the Opacity of the subject Mystery.
    +1 Reach: Every Reach spent allows the mage to plant one false piece of Surface or Deep Information in the Mystery, either concealing a true piece of information or adding an entirely new falsehood. This can include placing another mage's Signature Nimbus on the Mystery, if the caster has studied it. Recognizing the falsehood requires a Clash of Wills while examining the Mystery with Focused Mage Sight.
    So, does the mage receive the rote quality on the CoW against a spell that's only purpose is to confuse mages using Focused Mage Sight? Or should it just receive the normal Gnosis + Arcanum vs. Gnosis + Arcanum. My gut feeling is that it is the normal CoW and not the rote quality boosted version referenced in the Focused Mage Sight, but I thought I would reach out to see what everyone else thought. My reasoning is also founded on the fact that the 2E Core references if a CoW would be provoked when using Active Mage Sight but that could also be tripped if someone was using it to analyze a spell that was concealing another effect entirely. Or perhaps it is a combination of the two in which it could be they get Rote Quality to bypass the initial aspect, but get the normal CoW when trying to bypass the Path to Jerusalem.

    Thanks!


    "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

  • #2
    Prime Sight would get rote factor on the clash, other Arcana wouldn't.


    Dave Brookshaw, Mage and Deviant Developer, writer of many things

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    • #3
      Awesome, thanks for the clarification. I plan on using that in my upcoming gaming session.


      "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
        Prime Sight would get rote factor on the clash, other Arcana wouldn't.

        Please dont make the withstand something that the spell manipulates. It doesnt work. You add the spells potency to the withstand of the spell which then cant beat the withstand because they are the same. Opacity 3, spell potency 4 vs withstand 3 leaves potency 1, new withstand 4 vs spell potency 4, oh dear no more spell.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by totalgit View Post
          Please dont make the withstand something that the spell manipulates. It doesnt work. You add the spells potency to the withstand of the spell which then cant beat the withstand because they are the same. Opacity 3, spell potency 4 vs withstand 3 leaves potency 1, new withstand 4 vs spell potency 4, oh dear no more spell.
          Where are you coming up with that? Nothing in the spell implies it messes with Withstand.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

            Where are you coming up with that? Nothing in the spell implies it messes with Withstand.

            Withstand: Opacity,

            What does the spell do?
            Add the spell's Potency to the Opacity of the subject Mystery.

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            • #7
              Please dont make the withstand something that the spell manipulates. It doesnt work. You add the spells potency to the withstand of the spell which then cant beat the withstand because they are the same. Opacity 3, spell potency 4 vs withstand 3 leaves potency 1, new withstand 4 vs spell potency 4, oh dear no more spell.
              This was actually an argument raised in a previous thread, it was determined that a spell can't check its withstand against itself. What would happen, in terms of mechanics is you would have an Opacity that fluctuated constantly between 3 & 4 as the spell reapplied & no longer applied it's potency bonus to the Mystery's Opacity creating a quantum state of always on & always off. However, this was not the design of magic to have it check its own Withstand. Because there is a Matter spell that has Durability as a Withstand and it increased Durability.

              There were also examples of lowering Resolve/Composure through Mental Spells and thus creating a chain effect that would reduce someone's Resolve/Composure down to 1, but again this is circular logic that was not intended, only if the Withstand changes outside the spell's mechanics do you re-evaluate Withstand. You can also use another spell to increase the Withstand against a spell.
              Last edited by Taldorblackfire; 01-03-2018, 01:01 AM. Reason: Spelling error.


              "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by totalgit View Post
                Withstand: Opacity,

                What does the spell do?
                That’s to cast the spell in the first place, reducing Opacity via Scrutiny doesn’t deal with Withstand at all.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post

                  This was actually an argument raised in a previous thread, it was determined that a spell can't check its withstand against itself. What would happen, in terms of mechanics is you would have an Opacity that fluctuated constantly between 3 & 4 as the spell reapplied & no longer applied it's potency bonus to the Mystery's Opacity creating a quantum state of always on & always off. However, this was not the design of magic to have it check its own Withstand. Because there is a Matter spell that has Durability as a Withstand and it increased Durability.

                  There were also examples of lowering Resolve/Composure through Mental Spells and thus creating a chain effect that would reduce someone's Resolve/Composure down to 1, but again this is circular logic that was not intended, only if the Withstand changes outside the spell's mechanics do you re-evaluate Withstand. You can also use another spell to increase the Withstand against a spell.

                  I was part of that argument and no firm comment either way was agreed on. DaveB has said that a spell checks its withstand rating all the time. Its why if you use willpower to increase a reistantance trait that is a spells withstabnd you can temp stop having a spell work on you.

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                  • #10
                    I was part of that argument and no firm comment either way was agreed on.
                    Hm, interesting, it seems that was the design because that would be the only way it works. Besides, why would a spell check its own Withstand? Sounds pretty silly to me honestly, and again would result in what I described above, so its pretty much a moot point.


                    "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                      That’s to cast the spell in the first place, reducing Opacity via Scrutiny doesn’t deal with Withstand at all.

                      If the withstand rating changes during a spells duration then it gets reevaluated. So the Path spell now has the same potency as the withdstand rating of the mystery its on and therefore is suppressed.

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                      • #12
                        Then reapplies... once it rechecks.


                        "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post

                          Hm, interesting, it seems that was the design because that would be the only way it works. Besides, why would a spell check its own Withstand? Sounds pretty silly to me honestly, and again would result in what I described above, so its pretty much a moot point.
                          A spell checks its withstand rating vs the target continually. I originally argued that it only checked withstand when first cast but DaveB said it worked continually has there hasnt been any discussion about how all the other spells like shaping etc therefore work.

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                          • #14
                            It is checking the target's withstand aside from the spell, seems pretty simple to me.


                            "Teamwork makes the dream work!"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
                              Then reapplies... once it rechecks.
                              It wont though, If the original opacity is 3, your path spell has potency 4 then the withstand is 3, your spell ends up with potency 1 which raises the opacity to 4, the spell rechecks and now has zero potency so is suppressed. Thats it.

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