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  • #16
    At first I though the Law spell would just be an area version of Sworn Oaths, but I guess the difference is that for Sworn Oaths the target has to take the Oath freely. But maybe you could do it with an AOE Fate Making spell? How does the Law spell fall under Dynamics? Maybe if the law could change...
    Last edited by projectmoon; 02-14-2018, 05:11 AM.

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    • #17
      Ah, the way i envisioned it, it would fall under dynamics because it contains a lot of parameters that could change:
      This is the way i envisioned it>

      Setup:
      You make a body of laws for your personal fief, (which happens to contain provisions for changing the laws).
      And then cast Law to enforce it (On something the size of a country).
      Being immortal, you cast the spell with indefinite duration.

      Over the years, the law gets changed (to go with the times), so the spell would enforce the Law
      If the borders of the country expand, the law expands there.
      If people move to the country, they also become subject to the spell

      In terms of mechanics, i was thinking more Divine intervention, mixed with Strings of Fate

      It could also be fun to have statements like "Crime doesn't pay": any money obtained from criminal activity gets "lost".

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      • #18
        That would definitely fit Dynamics, yes.

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        • #19
          Hmm, I'm sure some of the Essence Shaping of idigam could fit here, as well as Noble Numina that Acrozatarim wrote up.


          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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          • #20
            Edit: An updated version of the Law spell suggested by MovingMind. There are some small changes to the text and an additional Reach effect.

            Law (Fate ••••• •)
            • Practice: Dynamics
            • Primary Factor: Duration
            • Cost: 2 Mana
            • Example Quintessences: The original text of a law that has been amended
            This spell turns the archmaster’s will into the law of the land. Fate enforces adherence to the law, and punishes those who break the limits that have been set. The archmaster must specify a clear body of law or rules, although it does not need to be written down. Subjects of the spell gain one Boon per Potency as long as they adhere to the law, and suffer one Hex per Potency once they have broken the law. This spell can also be used to enforce only Boons or Hexes, instead of both. Boons and Hexes expire when the spell’s Duration ends.

            The spell is capable of responding to changes in conditions: if the body of original body of law allows for amendment, the spell enforces any altered versions of it. Further, if the law specifies an area of jurisdiction (such as a county or state), the spell is capable of altering its Scale factor if the area of jurisdiction changes. Law must be cast as an Area spell to change size dynamically, and its original Scale factor must cover the original area of jurisdiction.

            +1 Reach: Fate conspires to undo or make impossible any actions conflicting with the law. Any attempts to break the law, intentionally or otherwise, even mundane actions, trigger a Clash of Wills roll. On failure, the subject may not proceed, or fate undoes the action. Characters without relevant shielding magic contest with Supernatural Tolerance + Resolve.

            +1 Reach: Subjects of the spell have one Aspiration or Obsession replaced by one of the archmaster’s design, based on conditions the archmaster chooses.

            +1 Reach: The archmaster knows when subjects of the spell break the rules set forth by the spell.

            Last edited by projectmoon; 02-21-2018, 03:18 PM.

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            • #21
              While I appreciate the effort that Falco put into the "Archmage Patch," I feel like it's a little too conservative. Where Core is giving you a nudge and a wink while muttering something about "unlimited free Reach," Falco is sweating over whether Archmages "Imperial Armor" is too strong to print (summary: it's barely more potent than regular mage armor in most cases).

              Archmages are allowed to be the godlike beings they are. They should have utter mastery over the common practices, not simply the improvements that already come naturally with higher gnosis and arcana. This is Archmage: think big.

              P.S. Just something I noticed: Falco lists Methuselahs as an example of a "greater being" (as opposed to a lesser being: vampire, werewolf, mage, etc...) Methuselahs are simply Elders that no longer suffer from memory loss and forced torpor (Fog of Eternity?). No template change is offered, and no direct power increase is granted. In fact, the question of Methuselahs having access to 6+ Disciplines was brought up and explicitly, strongly denied. So Methuselahs are still Vampires, not Archvampires: as such, a Methuselah is "simply" a really strong, really old Vampire -- but still a Vampire, and classifies as a "lesser being" along with other Elders.
              Last edited by Realmlord; 02-21-2018, 11:13 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by projectmoon View Post
                +1 Reach: Fate conspires to undo or make impossible any actions conflicting with the law. Any attempts to break the law, intentionally or otherwise, trigger a Clash of Wills roll. On failure, the subject may not proceed, or fate undoes the action. Characters without relevant shielding magic contest with Supernatural Tolerance + Resolve.
                Mundane actions are not supposed to trigger Clash of Wills. This is imperial magic so you could break that rule, but in such case it should be clarified in the text.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                • #23
                  Since this is purely a Fate spell (and therefore lacking Time's editing of the past, or Mind's control of actions) I'm seeing the Clash of Wills as more of a pre-emptive thing. In other words, the Clash of Wills happens before the mundane action, in order to allow/prevent the mundane action from ever taking place.

                  If I want to fire a gun, and firearms are against the "Law," I need to CoW and win before I draw and shoot - if I lose the CoW, my gun no long has bullets, or it has mysteriously disappeared.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Realmlord View Post
                    So Methuselahs are still Vampires, not Archvampires: as such, a Methuselah is "simply" a really strong, really old Vampire -- but still a Vampire, and classifies as a "lesser being" along with other Elders.
                    Of the two explicit Methuselahs we're shown, one has three bodies and the other can tell a lie that reality conspires to make true. Both are ancients who had to "die" a second time to become what they are and one of the principal distinguishing factors of a Methuselah is no longer a consistent facet of the setting. They occupy the same niche as archmasters do and possess unusual qualities not exhibited by other vampires. There is room to treat them with a similar level of consideration in a game where they're likely to cross paths with an archmage directly.


                    Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                    Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                    • #25
                      "I was also pleased that Requiem did away with godlike elders."
                      "At the same time, I didn’t want to break the mechanical ecology of Requiem, or drown player characters in unbeatable bad guys. And Lord, Lord did I never want to introduce 6+ dot Disciplines.
                      So Zagreus has a broad range of abilities at high levels, but doesn’t exceed **other elders**, or advanced player characters, in any specific field. His only really unusual number is Blood Potency, and play experience shows that the amount of Vitae a character can store and spend becomes a game of diminishing returns."
                      (Emphasis mine)

                      Both quotes by Rose Bailey - and, it should be noted, Zegreus is the vampire (o
                      ne of the two Methuselahs) that can tell a lie which reality conspires to make true. Which really is nothing out of the ordinary for a high-level Devotion.

                      It should also be noted that both Elder and Methuselah are references to *age* and is just a logical continuation of the titles... if anything, this continuation shows that Methuselahs are still within Vampire, and not their own template. Greater beings are named after something they *became* e.g. Deathlord, Archmage, True Fae. An Elder becoming a Methuselah is like an Adept becoming a Master: just a graduation in power within the scope of the template, not becoming a new one. The above emphasis even seems to imply that Methuselahs ARE still Elders, but with memories intact)

                      They share the same niche insofar as both Elders/Methuselahs and Archmages are both 1) powerful, and 2) reclusive - this, as you and I both know, doesn't make them both "Greater Beings." It requires far more than that to cross the gap.

                      The one thing that you pointed out - Methuselahs having to die in a mystical ritual or circumstance, and mysteriously return to life - is an interesting point. It is a literal interpretation of the symbolic death and resurrection that mages endure to become archmages. So while I agree they have similarities, I don't think you can make the case for Methuselahs being a "greater being" along with Archmages, Rank 6+ Spirits, True Fae, Deathlords, and their ilk. They are still bound to the same physical body, they still function almost completely the same as "normal" Vampires, and they have no access to Disciplines 6+.

                      As Rose said, they have time to master a huge array of abilities, but they don't exceed elders in a specific field. They just have a lot of them.

                      Being a first among equals doesn't put them in a position to be bargaining with Archmages, Deathlords, and True Fae. All three require a template change. Methuselahs are the Vampire template with one bonus - thus, are still the Vampire template - thus, lesser beings.
                      Last edited by Realmlord; 02-21-2018, 04:36 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                        Mundane actions are not supposed to trigger Clash of Wills. This is imperial magic so you could break that rule, but in such case it should be clarified in the text.
                        This Reach effect was to cover the suggestion that was originally given about "Crime doesn't pay," where stolen money would just disappear or something like that. But Fate magic doesn't usually work like that. Instead it screws with probabilities, and a chain of occurrences can bring about a specific event a Fate mage wants to happen. Narratively, and especially with imperial magic, it might start warping probability in such a way that things do straight up disappear or the like. But the Reach effect may "allow" someone to commit a crime against the Law, but conspire to undo it just as quickly. It's all about how the ST wants to play it.

                        As for the text, yes. A few words added should clarify it properly.

                        Edit: The spell has been updated.
                        Last edited by projectmoon; 02-21-2018, 03:18 PM.

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                        • #27
                          What would you even Clash with? The systems for CoW don't support mundane actions at all.

                          Would you just roll the dicepool of the action you attempted?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                            What would you even Clash with? The systems for CoW don't support mundane actions at all.

                            Would you just roll the dicepool of the action you attempted?
                            Well the spell specifies Supernatural Tolerance + Resolve. But yes, the system for Clash of Wills normally does not support this. But luckily archmages dabble in the impossible regularly. If there is a better way to achieve the same effect, I am open to suggestions.

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                            • #29
                              Which, incidentally, could very well mean the transgressor gets a higher dice pool for doing it mundanely. Especially considering that most major splats have their powers capped at five but Attributes can go up to ten.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mystery: Coil of Smoke

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Realmlord View Post
                                While I appreciate the effort that Falco put into the "Archmage Patch," I feel like it's a little too conservative. Where Core is giving you a nudge and a wink while muttering something about "unlimited free Reach," Falco is sweating over whether Archmages "Imperial Armor" is too strong to print (summary: it's barely more potent than regular mage armor in most cases).

                                Archmages are allowed to be the godlike beings they are. They should have utter mastery over the common practices, not simply the improvements that already come naturally with higher gnosis and arcana. This is Archmage: think big.

                                P.S. Just something I noticed: Falco lists Methuselahs as an example of a "greater being" (as opposed to a lesser being: vampire, werewolf, mage, etc...) Methuselahs are simply Elders that no longer suffer from memory loss and forced torpor (Fog of Eternity?). No template change is offered, and no direct power increase is granted. In fact, the question of Methuselahs having access to 6+ Disciplines was brought up and explicitly, strongly denied. So Methuselahs are still Vampires, not Archvampires: as such, a Methuselah is "simply" a really strong, really old Vampire -- but still a Vampire, and classifies as a "lesser being" along with other Elders.
                                I tried to keep them at about the same level as 1e, I wasn't reinventing the wheel, as mentioned, it's a patch.

                                Regardless, Methuselah as we currently have them are weak and underexplored, but
                                1) I'd still call them just barely powerful enough to be able to, at least, Clash with an Archmage. The archmage is still likely much more powerful than them in the majority of ways. As Satchel pointed out, they DO have some minor 'break the template rules' abilities and they're said to be something on another level, so I think that they can Clash, even if i'd never call them (as they currently are) on the same power tier.
                                Edit: To put it simpler, Mages are far more powerful than Vampires, and Archmages are far more powerful than Methuselahs, but you'd still let a Vamp clash a mage and still let the Methuselah Clash the Archmage.
                                2) I tend to treat MEthuselahs as gods myself, and that tends to influence my homebrew 'fluff', I'll admit. I give them a new template, some inherent abilities, and free access to custom powers that further twist their template. I'm currently running a crossover game over skype/discord and the city's Methuselah is a force of nature that's just starting to wake up again as part of their current plot. Fun times.


                                On a separate note, I'm glad to see people making use of that document!
                                Last edited by falco1029; 02-21-2018, 11:10 PM.


                                My CofD Homebrew

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