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How does quiescence work in a society that believes in magic?

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  • #46
    After seeing that, I now decide in my headcanon that the pre-Fall world is the world in Mage the Ascension.


    MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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    • #47
      I like your semi-sarcastic descriptions, Dave; it makes me think of Father Ted but with wizards.

      "So I hear you're Jnanamukti now, Hierophant."

      "What!? Who said I'm an Jnanamukti?"

      "Everyone's saying it, Hierophant! Should we be all Jnanamukti now? What's the official line the Mysterium is taking?"

      "No, no-!"

      "Only, the Mysteries take up most of my time, and at night I just like a good book, so I might not be able to devote myself full-time to the genocide of Sleepers."

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
        I love the prehistory of Abeir-Toril. Not many D&D worlds say "anything you can play? Immigrants. There's five native races, one of them's dragons, one of them's (bizarrely) doppelgangers."

        Those land stealing immigrants.

        Yeah, out of the Toril natives, most had scales.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #49
          I'm inclined to say it was aliens. Maybe alien dragons. Maybe ascension turns people into alien dragons.

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          • #50
            Did pre-fall mages have to undergo the threshold seeking in order to access Imperial practices or were they as accessible as the regular practices?


            Historian ~ www.cronistasdastrevasbr.com

            I currently ST a... MtAW 2e campaign called "Axis Mundi - Si Vis Pacem"

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            • #51
              Even the dragon mythos is just exactly that; a myth.

              We do know that the whole precursors-as-dragons and magical dragons imagery was introduced by the Tremere, back when they were of the Diamond.


              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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              • #52
                My favorite answer to the original question is:

                Quiescence works normally, but within the cultural expectations. That is, when it distorts the perceived effects it uses culturally-appropriate forms. The magic that they recall isn't supernal, anymore, which is the part that their soul rejects. The incorrect notions of magic are already acceptable to the Sleepers and what they believe is possible. Therefore, things that appear to be truly fitting their paradigm wouldn't be perceived to be impossible and prod that abyssal part of their souls. (and "perceive" not "witness" is the word used, IIRC)

                This could lead to a situation where a population realize that one witch talks a very different game than the rest, but everybody knows he's doing the same things. They've seen it. Forcing the discrimination would not be nice.

                "Sure, Bob, you're much more powerful than Mother Ida. Okay, man. Yeah, you touched the fury of the heavens or whatever. That's nice. Mind finishing up that luck charm for me? My wife's giving birth soon and I'd like her to have it during labor. Thanks. You're the best witch we have. I tell it to everybody."

                (And we don't know that the Tremere introduced any such thing. They simply claim to be the holders of the One True History; If that is suspect so's the rest.)
                Last edited by thenate; 02-04-2018, 09:47 AM.


                Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by thenate View Post
                  (And we don't know that the Tremere introduced any such thing. They simply claim to be the holders of the One True History; If that is suspect so's the rest.)
                  Dave mentioned it sometime ago. If the Diamond aren't literal descendants of Atlantis, then you need to find a reason that they have this unified dragon motif. Presumably it'll actually get clearly laid down in Tome of the Pentacle whenever that appears.


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                  • #54
                    I think it'll remain one of those out-of-book things unless the Tremere get a full write-up, and there it would be portrayed as a legend.

                    Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                    Where exactly did you think the whole Dragon symbolism motif came from, anyway?

                    (That's right! The Diamond got it from the Tremere!)
                    Last edited by nofather; 02-04-2018, 01:36 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Way back when second edition was called "Mystery Play: The Fallen World Chronicle" and we were examining what we would change about the first edition's early books with benefit of hindsight, increasing the histiroicity of the Orders was big on our to-do list. The gameline hasn't ever been as "Atlantis! Then nothing ever changes!" as it's sometimes made out to be - the Mysterium being created from the Pancryptiates and Keepers by the Corpus Author, the Arrow abandoning mortal society after World War 2, the Nameless War and the Great Refusal are all in those early books, but we leant into it hard in second edition. So yeah, I know what the Fourth Great Ministry of Seers was before Panopticon took their place, and just as we showed in Dark Eras where the Diamond gets a lot of its terminology and beliefs from, we have taken the few centuries gap between the Tremere becoming liches and being found out and driven into hiding by the Diamond and made them a former Diamond Order. Part of that was deciding what of the modern Pentacle's beliefs traces back to them, and the Dragon won.

                      A lot of Awakening's setting, in my tenure, has been "this thing first ed said they believe. What evidence do they actually have for it, how did they arrive at that hypothesis, and when did it become accepted?" Often using the language or mythology the words for things come from as a guide. Retrofitting the Awakened into being competent academics instead of just metaphors for them.

                      Which is pertinent to the other thread going on at the moment, about challenging Supernal "truth". First ed Mage was interested in telling you mages knew the truth. We're interested in showing you how and why they know it.


                      Dave Brookshaw, freelance writer and Developer

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                        Way back when second edition was called "Mystery Play: The Fallen World Chronicle" and we were examining what we would change about the first edition's early books with benefit of hindsight, increasing the histiroicity of the Orders was big on our to-do list. The gameline hasn't ever been as "Atlantis! Then nothing ever changes!" as it's sometimes made out to be - the Mysterium being created from the Pancryptiates and Keepers by the Corpus Author, the Arrow abandoning mortal society after World War 2, the Nameless War and the Great Refusal are all in those early books, but we leant into it hard in second edition. So yeah, I know what the Fourth Great Ministry of Seers was before Panopticon took their place, and just as we showed in Dark Eras where the Diamond gets a lot of its terminology and beliefs from, we have taken the few centuries gap between the Tremere becoming liches and being found out and driven into hiding by the Diamond and made them a former Diamond Order. Part of that was deciding what of the modern Pentacle's beliefs traces back to them, and the Dragon won.

                        A lot of Awakening's setting, in my tenure, has been "this thing first ed said they believe. What evidence do they actually have for it, how did they arrive at that hypothesis, and when did it become accepted?" Often using the language or mythology the words for things come from as a guide. Retrofitting the Awakened into being competent academics instead of just metaphors for them.

                        Which is pertinent to the other thread going on at the moment, about challenging Supernal "truth". First ed Mage was interested in telling you mages knew the truth. We're interested in showing you how and why they know it.
                        you guys did a pretty good job of it.

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                        • #57
                          As Nicolas Milioni said, good job.

                          Too bad a good number of people will never see it. The downside of “write the corebooks from the monsters’ perspectives” prevalent in CoD books is that people keep mistaking in-character beliefs and perspectives for meta-game canon and truth.

                          It happened with Mage, with some thinking mages cannot possibly be monsters, and some thinking how mages categorizing other supernaturals is Mage invalidating their gamelines. It happened with Beast, with some people thinking the book endorsed sadism and victim-blaming. It happened with Changeling, with some people insistent on changelings being absolutely non-predatory creatures.

                          It’s both a feature and a major downside of games about playing monsters. Inevitable, I suppose.
                          Last edited by 21C Hermit; 02-04-2018, 07:05 PM. Reason: Editted out what could be an attack against preferences.


                          MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                            It happened with Beast, with some people thinking the book endorsed sadism and victim-blaming.
                            Outside of clinical psychology, sadism is defined as "any enjoyment in being cruel," so its hard to say that beings whose existence revolves around satisfaction via terrorizing people are not encouraged to be sadistic; and the vast majority of the flavor text articles on them feeding revolves around a revenge fantasy motif.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                              Outside of clinical psychology, sadism is defined as "any enjoyment in being cruel," so its hard to say that beings whose existence revolves around satisfaction via terrorizing people are not encouraged to be sadistic;
                              Fictional characters possessing this quality is not an endorsement of this quality any more than fictional vampires drinking blood and enjoying it is an endorsement of blood-drinking.

                              and the vast majority of the flavor text articles on them feeding revolves around a revenge fantasy motif.
                              "The vast majority" is not a phrase synonymous with "some."


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Deinos View Post
                                Outside of clinical psychology, sadism is defined as "any enjoyment in being cruel," so its hard to say that beings whose existence revolves around satisfaction via terrorizing people are not encouraged to be sadistic; and the vast majority of the flavor text articles on them feeding revolves around a revenge fantasy motif.
                                Which is also pretty normal behavior for a wide majority of the other splats, and yet Beast gets called out for it because the game just happens to own it more than the rest. Where the complaint comes from is that people latch onto that but also brush off the ways Beasts actually try to build with their nature rather than dress it down.


                                Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
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                                The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                                Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

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