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How does quiescence work in a society that believes in magic?

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  • How does quiescence work in a society that believes in magic?

    At first I thought that quiescence affected sleepers exclusively exposed to supernal magic, however the 2E book and some other source material such as Magical Traditions suggest that even sleeper or sleepwalker magic contains motes of the supernal, or that it is a fallen version of the supernal in a sense. According to the sourcebook, some mediums and fallen magic practitioners would be sleepwalkers. The other supernaturals would also be sleepwalkers.

    Which brings me to this question, how would quiescence work in a society where everyone believes in magic, even sleepwalker magic? For example, almost any society prior to the Renaissance, or even many more traditional societies today. Also I could see that in remote villages that still rely on traditional healers, if someone were to awaken, they potentially could practice in the open if they community accepts it. Maybe many spiritual traditions and religions were awakened trying to explain their enlightenment to their communities.

    EDIT: I should emphasize that these traditional practitioners who aren't awakened aren't just humans with wishful thinking, but could be low magic practitioners as in the Second Sight book.

    To be honest, the attitude of quiescence toward magic seems mostly a way that modern people sometimes respond to the supernatural, of course mostly those who are invested in a worldview that does not allow for magic, and not the person who chases the latest New Age fad. An alternate way it could manifest especially in people who do believe in the supernatural, would be more akin to lunacy or disquiet, with great fear and belief the mage is corrupted by an evil spirit.

    Yet it gets murky with the division between sleeper and sleepwalker. I could argue that long ago, sleepwalkers were the norm if belief in magic was the norm, or would it be?

    I am playing a mage who is into archeology and anthropology, she works at a natural history museum and routinely handles "sleeper magic" objects, so I thought that this question might be an interesting obsession for her.

    EDIT: I already know that belief isn't what divides a sleeper and a sleepwalker, but rather I am talking about exposure to the supernatural or even tiny fragments of the supernal.
    Last edited by GreenKitty; 01-26-2018, 07:58 PM.

  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Since I'm currently at work and can't really say much more than a brief bit, I will exhort you to make a thread in Beast about this if you are set on having this conversation. No need for us to derail this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Deinos
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    Fictional characters
    My post was clearly referring to their in character behavior aspect alone, so... here's your reply.

    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    Which is also pretty normal behavior for a wide majority of the other splats, and yet Beast gets called out for it because the game just happens to own it
    Well, Beast is called out for it because deriving pleasure from cruelty (sadism) is to Beasts is their feeding mechanic; its at best a vice for other types and the daily bread of Beasts. Likewise, the tone of, say, Vampire is unvarying condemnation of the protagonists (and, mechanically, cruel behavior is punished by the rules), while for Beast, it is glowing praise.

    As far as the perceived victim blaming element, it led to them flat out making it so Heroes aren't the nearly irrevocably traumatized victims of Beasts anymore, so for whatever reason the developers seem to have taken that criticism to heart.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Deinos View Post
    Outside of clinical psychology, sadism is defined as "any enjoyment in being cruel," so its hard to say that beings whose existence revolves around satisfaction via terrorizing people are not encouraged to be sadistic; and the vast majority of the flavor text articles on them feeding revolves around a revenge fantasy motif.
    Which is also pretty normal behavior for a wide majority of the other splats, and yet Beast gets called out for it because the game just happens to own it more than the rest. Where the complaint comes from is that people latch onto that but also brush off the ways Beasts actually try to build with their nature rather than dress it down.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Deinos View Post
    Outside of clinical psychology, sadism is defined as "any enjoyment in being cruel," so its hard to say that beings whose existence revolves around satisfaction via terrorizing people are not encouraged to be sadistic;
    Fictional characters possessing this quality is not an endorsement of this quality any more than fictional vampires drinking blood and enjoying it is an endorsement of blood-drinking.

    and the vast majority of the flavor text articles on them feeding revolves around a revenge fantasy motif.
    "The vast majority" is not a phrase synonymous with "some."

    Leave a comment:


  • Deinos
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    It happened with Beast, with some people thinking the book endorsed sadism and victim-blaming.
    Outside of clinical psychology, sadism is defined as "any enjoyment in being cruel," so its hard to say that beings whose existence revolves around satisfaction via terrorizing people are not encouraged to be sadistic; and the vast majority of the flavor text articles on them feeding revolves around a revenge fantasy motif.

    Leave a comment:


  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    As Nicolas Milioni said, good job.

    Too bad a good number of people will never see it. The downside of “write the corebooks from the monsters’ perspectives” prevalent in CoD books is that people keep mistaking in-character beliefs and perspectives for meta-game canon and truth.

    It happened with Mage, with some thinking mages cannot possibly be monsters, and some thinking how mages categorizing other supernaturals is Mage invalidating their gamelines. It happened with Beast, with some people thinking the book endorsed sadism and victim-blaming. It happened with Changeling, with some people insistent on changelings being absolutely non-predatory creatures.

    It’s both a feature and a major downside of games about playing monsters. Inevitable, I suppose.
    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 02-04-2018, 07:05 PM. Reason: Editted out what could be an attack against preferences.

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  • Nicolas Milioni
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
    Way back when second edition was called "Mystery Play: The Fallen World Chronicle" and we were examining what we would change about the first edition's early books with benefit of hindsight, increasing the histiroicity of the Orders was big on our to-do list. The gameline hasn't ever been as "Atlantis! Then nothing ever changes!" as it's sometimes made out to be - the Mysterium being created from the Pancryptiates and Keepers by the Corpus Author, the Arrow abandoning mortal society after World War 2, the Nameless War and the Great Refusal are all in those early books, but we leant into it hard in second edition. So yeah, I know what the Fourth Great Ministry of Seers was before Panopticon took their place, and just as we showed in Dark Eras where the Diamond gets a lot of its terminology and beliefs from, we have taken the few centuries gap between the Tremere becoming liches and being found out and driven into hiding by the Diamond and made them a former Diamond Order. Part of that was deciding what of the modern Pentacle's beliefs traces back to them, and the Dragon won.

    A lot of Awakening's setting, in my tenure, has been "this thing first ed said they believe. What evidence do they actually have for it, how did they arrive at that hypothesis, and when did it become accepted?" Often using the language or mythology the words for things come from as a guide. Retrofitting the Awakened into being competent academics instead of just metaphors for them.

    Which is pertinent to the other thread going on at the moment, about challenging Supernal "truth". First ed Mage was interested in telling you mages knew the truth. We're interested in showing you how and why they know it.
    you guys did a pretty good job of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave Brookshaw
    replied
    Way back when second edition was called "Mystery Play: The Fallen World Chronicle" and we were examining what we would change about the first edition's early books with benefit of hindsight, increasing the histiroicity of the Orders was big on our to-do list. The gameline hasn't ever been as "Atlantis! Then nothing ever changes!" as it's sometimes made out to be - the Mysterium being created from the Pancryptiates and Keepers by the Corpus Author, the Arrow abandoning mortal society after World War 2, the Nameless War and the Great Refusal are all in those early books, but we leant into it hard in second edition. So yeah, I know what the Fourth Great Ministry of Seers was before Panopticon took their place, and just as we showed in Dark Eras where the Diamond gets a lot of its terminology and beliefs from, we have taken the few centuries gap between the Tremere becoming liches and being found out and driven into hiding by the Diamond and made them a former Diamond Order. Part of that was deciding what of the modern Pentacle's beliefs traces back to them, and the Dragon won.

    A lot of Awakening's setting, in my tenure, has been "this thing first ed said they believe. What evidence do they actually have for it, how did they arrive at that hypothesis, and when did it become accepted?" Often using the language or mythology the words for things come from as a guide. Retrofitting the Awakened into being competent academics instead of just metaphors for them.

    Which is pertinent to the other thread going on at the moment, about challenging Supernal "truth". First ed Mage was interested in telling you mages knew the truth. We're interested in showing you how and why they know it.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    I think it'll remain one of those out-of-book things unless the Tremere get a full write-up, and there it would be portrayed as a legend.

    Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
    Where exactly did you think the whole Dragon symbolism motif came from, anyway?

    (That's right! The Diamond got it from the Tremere!)
    Last edited by nofather; 02-04-2018, 01:36 PM.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by thenate View Post
    (And we don't know that the Tremere introduced any such thing. They simply claim to be the holders of the One True History; If that is suspect so's the rest.)
    Dave mentioned it sometime ago. If the Diamond aren't literal descendants of Atlantis, then you need to find a reason that they have this unified dragon motif. Presumably it'll actually get clearly laid down in Tome of the Pentacle whenever that appears.

    Leave a comment:


  • thenate
    replied
    My favorite answer to the original question is:

    Quiescence works normally, but within the cultural expectations. That is, when it distorts the perceived effects it uses culturally-appropriate forms. The magic that they recall isn't supernal, anymore, which is the part that their soul rejects. The incorrect notions of magic are already acceptable to the Sleepers and what they believe is possible. Therefore, things that appear to be truly fitting their paradigm wouldn't be perceived to be impossible and prod that abyssal part of their souls. (and "perceive" not "witness" is the word used, IIRC)

    This could lead to a situation where a population realize that one witch talks a very different game than the rest, but everybody knows he's doing the same things. They've seen it. Forcing the discrimination would not be nice.

    "Sure, Bob, you're much more powerful than Mother Ida. Okay, man. Yeah, you touched the fury of the heavens or whatever. That's nice. Mind finishing up that luck charm for me? My wife's giving birth soon and I'd like her to have it during labor. Thanks. You're the best witch we have. I tell it to everybody."

    (And we don't know that the Tremere introduced any such thing. They simply claim to be the holders of the One True History; If that is suspect so's the rest.)
    Last edited by thenate; 02-04-2018, 09:47 AM.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Even the dragon mythos is just exactly that; a myth.

    We do know that the whole precursors-as-dragons and magical dragons imagery was introduced by the Tremere, back when they were of the Diamond.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yuukale
    replied
    Did pre-fall mages have to undergo the threshold seeking in order to access Imperial practices or were they as accessible as the regular practices?

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenKitty
    replied
    I'm inclined to say it was aliens. Maybe alien dragons. Maybe ascension turns people into alien dragons.

    Leave a comment:

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