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Questions about the Oneiros and the soul

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  • Questions about the Oneiros and the soul

    1. Does the Oneiros of a person change after they're given someone else's soul? I remember reading that the Oneiros changes upon adopting a legacy or after creating a soul stone, so I can imagine their might be some kind of change, but my assumption is that they retain their original daimon, so the changes are probably subtle. Thoughts?

    2. a. What happens to a person in the Oneiros of a person who has their soul severed? b. What if the person is in their own Oneiros when this happens? This seems like a question that is best answered at the time of the event, but I'm asking it in case there's already an established answer. My assumption is that either event would essentially act as a death in the Oneiros.

    3. What happens if a person is in the Oneiros of a person when they awaken? Does the awakening abort? Is this a question best answered inside a particular game?

  • #2
    4. Is the Oneiros tied to the soul in such a way that possessing the soul allows access to the previous owner's Oneiros? Or is the Oneiros more a manifestion of the interaction of a sentient mind and a soul?

    5. What happens if you destroy or consume all the Goetia in a person's Oneiros?

    6. What are some potential ramafications of creating Irises/Portals between multiple people's Oneiroi? Hive mind? Mental communion?
    a. What happens if you Co-Locate multiple people's Oneiros (if that is even possible, due to scale)?


    Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
    Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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    • #3
      Every one of these seems like a question that could be an obsession, or at least be a mystery. Good stuff.

      7. Can you get your daimon to become more powerful by consuming mana or essence?

      8. Does your daimon even need essence?

      9. What happens if you both swap daimons and swap souls? Anything different from just swapping daimons?

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      • #4
        Being in a person's Oneiros shouldn't affect their Awakening directly, but it'll take you for one hell of a ride, since the Oneiros reshapes to reflect whatever the person is presently thinking about. If someone Awakens while you're in their Oneiros, that means it reflects the Supernal, pure and undiluted. So... If that happens, hold onto your butt.

        Also, if you destroy all the goetia in a person's Oneiros, it'll mess them up, but those things will eventually regrow. We've had examples from Dave of, say, destroying a person's arachnophobia, only to find it eventually takes shape again with time.

        If you summoned all the goetia out of their Oneiros, though, and bound them in a box, well... Suddenly that person is probably just a dull, emotionless husk.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
          4. Is the Oneiros tied to the soul in such a way that possessing the soul allows access to the previous owner's Oneiros? Or is the Oneiros more a manifestion of the interaction of a sentient mind and a soul?

          5. What happens if you destroy or consume all the Goetia in a person's Oneiros?

          6. What are some potential ramafications of creating Irises/Portals between multiple people's Oneiroi? Hive mind? Mental communion?
          a. What happens if you Co-Locate multiple people's Oneiros (if that is even possible, due to scale)?
          1) a person might not even be aware his soul was stolen, the external factors from soul loss will probably manifest inside the oneiros though as they slowly spiral into a broken person.
          2)again sleepers arnt probably even aware of soul loss, they just spiral down into thrall/broken territory and however that manifests in ones thoughts
          3) Since being in an awake person oneiros is akin to viewing whatever they are doing at the time, its probably very bad to be inside one during an awakeing. It probably isnt going to stop one and you'll be lucky if you arnt dragged into something terrible while its happening. Best answered in each ST's game really.
          4) no.
          5) it will eventually reform, goetia get created for every astral scene so each time a scene changes inside an oneiros goetia are probably created or shifted about to act as window people...
          6) you'll be able to travel via co-locate to the oneiros of whoever you have stacked? Space however works oddly in the astral as sympathy is odd there. (not sure how this translates to 2e though)
          7) over feeding probably isnt the way goetia gain power, their strength is determined by other things (popularity, strength of gnosis for daimons etc) so i would say no.
          8)Daimons probably dont need essence inside their own oneiros, they gain their rank every day in their home realms. They might bleed essence if outside your own oneiros, if you transplant one into another oneiros or even get it to the fallen world then it might start bleeding essence and probably reappear/reform back inside your oneiros if they hit hibernation.
          9) soul swapping just reverses whatever stage of soul loss conditioning you are at, you can swap souls like swapping batteries in a watch. You dont get info (apart from excellent sympathetic links to former owners and whatever info those have) on previous owners of them or access to previous owners oneiros etc.

          Daimons are goetic astral guides, swapping them is probably temporary (i know daves actual play used this) but i think the original persons goetia would just reform eventually and (try to) eject foreigners.
          Last edited by totalgit; 02-15-2018, 12:16 AM.

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          • #6
            I agree with totalgit's post, but just a note on reformed Goetia: It's dream actors that are recreated each time the scene changes. Goetia that represent major parts of your psyche takes longer to reform (during which you lack whatever they represent in your personality). I'd use the rules for discorporated spirits to determine how long it takes.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by totalgit View Post
              1) a person might not even be aware his soul was stolen, the external factors from soul loss will probably manifest inside the oneiros though as they slowly spiral into a broken person.
              I was unaware that you could enter the Oneiros of a person without a soul. I thought the Oneiros was tied specifically to the human soul. Assuming the soul and the Oneiros are tied together, the question was more asking how the exchange of a new soul for the old one would affect it.

              If a person can enter the Oneiros of a soulless person, that changes a lot of the assumptions I made with my questions. I'm seeing based on your answers that you believe that the Oneiros is accessible even if the human in question is without a soul.

              Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
              6. What are some potential ramafications of creating Irises/Portals between multiple people's Oneiroi? Hive mind? Mental communion?
              a. What happens if you Co-Locate multiple people's Oneiros (if that is even possible, due to scale)?
              I like this question. I don't have an answer, but it's a fun question.

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              • #8
                Since mages are able to work their magic (at least for a time) after suffering soul loss they still have their astral connection to their Watchtower. Part of that connection is the Oneiros, so while it might be crumbling and falling away if the soul loss continues, it doesn't instantly disappear along with the soul.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                  Since mages are able to work their magic (at least for a time) after suffering soul loss they still have their astral connection to their Watchtower. Part of that connection is the Oneiros, so while it might be crumbling and falling away if the soul loss continues, it doesn't instantly disappear along with the soul.
                  I thought it was stated that those suffering Soul Loss have no Oneiros?


                  Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                  Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                    I thought it was stated that those suffering Soul Loss have no Oneiros?
                    Their Onerios isn’t gone, they’re just not able to access the Astral at all.

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                    • #11
                      Ninja'd. Was just going to say that I'm pretty sure it's a connection to the Temenos that is lost with Soul Loss. Not sure if you could still poke around in your crumbling Oneiros or head out to the Anima Mundi.


                      My Homebrew Hub

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                      • #12
                        Wait, I thought the Oneiros is literally your soul. Furnished and inhabited by your mind. So how does one ‘enter’ a house without walls, metaphorically speaking?

                        EDIT: Okay, so now I have this image of random furniture and suddenly homeless people being exposed to the elements as a metaphor for the foundation-less mindscape.
                        Last edited by 21C Hermit; 02-15-2018, 10:13 AM.


                        MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                          Wait, I thought the Oneiros is literally your soul. Furnished and inhabited by your mind. So how does one ‘enter’ a house without walls, metaphorically speaking?
                          I think it's more like your house's foundation got ripped out from under it. You don't immediately lose all Integrity from getting your soul stolen (unless the spell has a whole ton of Reach dedicated to it) it just starts to crumble far more easily.

                          The walls and furnishings are still there, mostly out of habit, because you're resolutely ignoring the sagging floor and the shattered foundations.


                          My Homebrew Hub

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                          • #14
                            The core book states on p.98 that a soulless mage cannot enter the astral. My assumption is that this implies they lack the Oneiros to facilitate such a journey. My other assumption is that the ability of a mage to cast supernal magic is derived from their Gnosis which is supported by the soul. It’s grip on the awakened soul is why Death 5 is necessary to sever it.

                            Also, given that the Oneiros is called the personal soul, I don’t think it’s too far fetched to assume that it becomes inaccessible when a person is soulless. Unfortunately I’m not confident enough to state any of this as fact, but I can illuminate my reasoning.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Flux View Post
                              The core book states on p.98 that a soulless mage cannot enter the astral. My assumption is that this implies they lack the Oneiros to facilitate such a journey. My other assumption is that the ability of a mage to cast supernal magic is derived from their Gnosis which is supported by the soul. It’s grip on the awakened soul is why Death 5 is necessary to sever it.

                              Also, given that the Oneiros is called the personal soul, I don’t think it’s too far fetched to assume that it becomes inaccessible when a person is soulless. Unfortunately I’m not confident enough to state any of this as fact, but I can illuminate my reasoning.
                              Yeah, this was my train of logic too.

                              But then again, Arcanist made a fine metaphor up there...


                              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

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