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  • Mage 2E / Signs of Sorcery problem - No sharing Paths Mage Sight between cabal

    I take subtopic out of Aedes and Boons thread, based on new Signs of Sorcery preview. It just pointed me to one major problem I have with Mage 2E rules as collaborative gameplay experience that should be fixed in SoS materials at print. In a nutshell, Aedes are special places of power in Supernal World that only one Path can see and explore as Mystery. They are very intriguing and fun to run - but can only be perceived and interacted with BY ONE PATH of mages. That means that in typical players cabal it will be one, maybe two players that can dwell only to Mystery that should story - for whole players table - be part of. Hermit pointed it better:

    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    Only the hacker can interact with the system, while others are doing things outside the computer stuff. The hacker may face firewalls while hacking, while others may face external complications while the hacker is doing his stuff, both introduced by the Storyteller.

    Only the Path-corresponding mage can interact with the Aedes, while others are doing things outside the Supernal stuff. The Path’s mage may face Supernal entities while Mage Sight-ing, while others may face external complications while the mage is doing his stuff, both introduced by the Storyteller.
    The problem is that in Collaborative Investigative RPG Mage 2E is - in it's core rules and setting engine - dwelling into Mystery should be part of all players, not only 1/5th of them.

    You should not have scene where only one of five players is doing all Cool Stuff and rest just waits for him to wait. And No, throwing split combat for others is not always solution for something that is 'day-to-day' players experience - like observing and Scrutinizing Mysteries.

    I was pointed that Prime 4 spell 'Apocalypse' is solution to the problem - it shares casters Mage Sight to other people, mages included. But for me it's not solution to the problem with most basic and fundamental mechanics of the 2E game. I will not grant every player Prime 4 on start just to solve this. All of them using some Imbued items is also to conveying ( and what number, 5 Items per character? ).

    ESPECIALLY, as it should simply be in-build possibility for all players, too make table cooperative storytelling of Mystery possible. In my point of view, it's a bug in all the gameline politics to make Mage 2E clearly investigative game - if it's Investigation genere, all cabal members should be possible to pursue the same Mysteries, simple like that. With now rules, you need to make some story hacks that should simply work from the first game session.


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  • #2
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    You should not have scene where only one of five players is doing all Cool Stuff and rest just waits for him to wait. And No, throwing split combat for others is not always solution for something that is 'day-to-day' players experience - like observing and Scrutinizing Mysteries.

    I was pointed that Prime 4 spell 'Apocalypse' is solution to the problem - it shares casters Mage Sight to other people, mages included. But for me it's not solution to the problem with most basic and fundamental mechanics of the 2E game. I will not grant every player Prime 4 on start just to solve this. All of them using some Imbued items is also to conveying ( and what number, 5 Items per character? ).

    ESPECIALLY, as it should simply be in-build possibility for all players, too make table cooperative storytelling of Mystery possible. In my point of view, it's a bug in all the gameline politics to make Mage 2E clearly investigative game - if it's Investigation genere, all cabal members should be possible to pursue the same Mysteries, simple like that. With now rules, you need to make some story hacks that should simply work from the first game session.
    What you're conveying here is that you aren't willing to give individual players scenes where what they're doing is the focus and/or divide the cabal's attention and placement across separate locations and perspectives, and also that you're unwilling to make use of the workarounds necessary for that to be a viable mode of play for dealing with Mysteries that represent specific perspectives in a game where every major PC-template-sharing character is developing their own personal approach to the Mysteries.

    This is not exposing a flaw in the game. Every Mage character is capable of picking up four dots in Prime without special tutelage, Aedes are uncommon elements in the Supernal Worlds of their Paths, and not every mage is obligated to hold the same interest in every Mystery — part of the point of players tending to specialize their character roles is so that they don't all have to be equally capable of investigating every line of inquiry, and characters with the resources of a Sect at their disposal can generally afford to split their group efforts while one of them looks deeply into a specific symbolic entity.


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    • #3
      Eh, not sure it's such a big deal.

      Just like the summoning of a Supernal entity, it's an opportunity for one player to shine, enjoying a part of their Mage Sight/their Path that others aren't privy to.

      And even if it is a problem, borrow an Apocalypse imbued item and cast it on all of your Cabal. One item borrowed from the stores, problem solved. And that is just if the rest of your party isn't happy to just stand by and let the one+ Mage of the appropriate Path deal with it.
      Last edited by HerbertIsBestBert; 03-17-2018, 03:31 AM.

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      • #4
        There's a spell to share your Sight with another mage in Signs of Sorcery. Apocalypse is for giving a non-mage Mage Sight.


        Dave Brookshaw, freelance writer and Developer

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
          There's a spell to share your Sight with another mage in Signs of Sorcery. Apocalypse is for giving a non-mage Mage Sight.
          Apocalypse does still work on mages and specifically grants the Sight of the caster's Path, while Shared Sight as previewed specifically doesn't change the Path-based context of the target's Mage Sight — Wyrd's issue stems from the fact that Aedes can only be perceived by the Sight of specific Paths, which is why Apocalypse is what people are pointing to. Has Shared Sight changed in its particulars since it was last shown?


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
            There's a spell to share your Sight with another mage in Signs of Sorcery. Apocalypse is for giving a non-mage Mage Sight.
            Maybe it's been changed since the one we've seen, but the Shared Sight spell that was posted in the blog post shares the Arcanum, such that "Mages still perceive granted Arcana under their own Path, not the Path of the caster".

            I assume that's been changed?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Apocalypse does still work on mages and specifically grants the Sight of the caster's Path, while Shared Sight as previewed specifically doesn't change the Path-based context of the target's Mage Sight — Wyrd's issue stems from the fact that Aedes can only be perceived by the Sight of specific Paths, which is why Apocalypse is what people are pointing to. Has Shared Sight changed in its particulars since it was last shown?
              Exactly what I looking for - way to share ones Path Mage Sight to other Awakened character, on the start of Arcanum progression.

              Maybe DaveB will show now version of Shared Sight spell to let share players Mage Sight across Paths - we will see. For now I just answer arguments risen here.

              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              What you're conveying here is that you aren't willing to give individual players scenes where what they're doing is the focus and/or divide the cabal's attention and placement across separate locations and perspectives,
              Yes, I do not like to constantly split game party - we run one story to run one plot. I'm not against doing this from time to time, if there is some good reason. But when I would need to run parallel Mage Sight scenes for all mages is cabal, as a typical, 'day-to-day' scene run for Awakened - it's too much and unnecessary. There simply be rules for granting your Sight to other mages, early in Arcana levels - is it Attainment or Spell it's not really a difference for the larger problem

              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              and also that you're unwilling to make use of the workarounds necessary for that to be a viable mode of play for dealing with Mysteries that represent specific perspectives in a game where every major PC-template-sharing character is developing their own personal approach to the Mysteries.
              There is 'personal approach' - and there is, in reality, running game as series of interconnected 1on1's between solo player and ST. Personal Approach things are reflected in character Obsessions or Legacy - not day-to-day gameplay experience. If most basic thing PCs do - i.e. Mystery Scrutiny under Paths Supernal Realm - needs to make 1on1, every time they declare action - it's a problem with collaborative gameplay of whole team.

              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Every Mage character is capable of picking up four dots in Prime without special tutelage,
              After my last run with Mage 2E I will be very couscious to give any player ANY Arcanum 4th dot, not too mention giving Prime 4 for free to everyone. It's not viable solution on game where 4th dot of Arcanum makes you literal killing machine.

              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Aedes are uncommon elements in the Supernal Worlds of their Paths
              If I'm - as ST - making Aedes main Mystery to the story at hand, I want all players to see and interact with it - not only 1/5th of the team. Once again - running RPG you strive to not make session into series of 1on1's.

              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              not every mage is obligated to hold the same interest in every Mystery — part of the point of players tending to specialize their character roles is so that they don't all have to be equally capable of investigating every line of inquiry, and characters with the resources of a Sect at their disposal can generally afford to split their group efforts while one of them looks deeply into a specific symbolic entity.
              There is difference with 'My PCs Obsessions are Abyss and XVII century poetry' and 'As ST I want to run a story about Aedes, for whole players to experience'.
              Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-17-2018, 06:52 AM.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                But for me it's not solution to the problem with most basic and fundamental mechanics of the 2E game.
                OK.... I get the idea that a Mystery that's Path exclusive without specific spells isn't necessarily a great idea for many groups.

                But how is this a problem with a basic and fundamental mechanic? Aedes are a weird unique Mystery that keys off of something linked to Paths, it doesn't demonstrate anything other than Aedes might not work for some groups because of how they're structured. It doesn't expose a fundamental issue with Mage Sight, or a fundamental issue with Mysteries so... what's the big deal? It's a cool thing from a supplement that may or may not be fun to introduce to every game?

                Or am I missing something?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                  After my last run with Mage 2E I will be very couscious to give any player ANY Arcanum 4th dot, not too mention giving Prime 4 for free to everyone. It's viable not solution on game where 4th dot of Arcanum makes you literal killing machine.
                  Also... for all this talk about collaboration, I find the phrasing of, "give any player ANY Arcanaum 4th dot," to be strange. Last time I checked Mage doesn't have a giant, "you can't buy Gnosis and Arcana dots without the ST's explicit permission," sign. If a player wants the 4th dot and has satisfied the system requirements to get it... I think collaboration demands a lot more than, "I as the ST say no," regarding whether it should happen.

                  There is difference with 'My PCs Obsessions are Abyss and XVII century poetry' and 'As ST I want to run a story about Aedes, for whole players to experience'.
                  Aedes don't seem to be the right Mystery for this intent? They're either things that fall into the more personal side, or things that should go to higher level games where sharing Mage Sight including Path is something that's not onerous to achieve. Or just, you know, house rule Aedes somehow if you really like them and don't want to give it all to one player; though I'm having trouble seeing when you'd really need to do this over a Supernal Verge.

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                  • #10
                    Problem is that all Supernal Mysteries are large part of Mage. You want to talk to Supernal Entity in nearby - watch corresponding Path's Mage Sight. Look for Verge of particular Realm - watch corresponding Path's Mage Sight. Looks for the Aedes that is local Mystery for Awakened community - watch corresponding Path's Mage Sight. I will not be surprised if for looking for particular Abyssal Ziggurat realm you also would need to have corresponding Path's Mage Sight.

                    In Signs of Sorcery we will get 10 new Supernal Mysteries templates in the point of various Aedes - Why do I need to have only one Path all cabal members to running them?


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                    • #11
                      You don't, we've already shared that you can just borrow an item that is at most a 2-dot Imbued Item to perceive using a different Path.
                      Heck, make it an AoE version that moves with the item, and you only need to use 1 Mana a pop to grant the entire Cabal a specific Path's sight.

                      Sure that might not be the one that your specific Aede is native to, but I wouldn't imagine 2-dot items are too rare, especially ones as useful as those than grant other Mage Sights, and if any Mage in the Cabal knows Prime 1, then they can just cast the spell themselves.

                      There are solutions, easily accessible ones.

                      Heck, just give them the merits for free if you want to run an Aede based story.

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                      • #12
                        It's fixing myself the thing that should be good in first place from the start of 2E Mage gameline - i.e. to run group Mystery Scrutiny in multi-Paths cabal ( that is most common for PCs groups, from my over 12 years MtAw experiance ). That's why I raised topic. 'House rule everything' is not solution to the most often problem of the gameline. I will see how Shared Sight spell will end in SoS then - if it will solve multiPath cabals problem.
                        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 03-17-2018, 08:28 AM.


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                        • #13
                          If they don't suit your group, then you could just not use them as core mysteries, leave them as background elements. In fact, how often are you expecting to use an Aede as a core mystery? I mean, if it's not often, then you could just build the plot around obtaining the imbued items to allow the group to participate.


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                          • #14
                            I literally right now planing the 19th century game around Aedes popping-up - that just come very handy for the Mystery answer for previous plot idea - and I plan to use a lot of Supernal stuff in my games. And no, I will not restrict the game only for ( possible ) Mastigos characters. Just not sharing Paths Mage Sight in collaborative investigation game about mages - is stupid.


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                            • #15
                              Are you actually paying attention to the easy solutions that have been offered?

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