Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Paths to Lichdom

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    The Bokor aren't a great example of Moros interested in immortality, their entire process revolves around exploiting the physical dead or getting the living to be dead to be exploited. They might try to give it a nice window-dressing, but it's pretty clear that their methods involve creating nearly mindless zombies or shoving ghosts back into the bodies they possessed while living. A Bokor at best believes the dead aren't done doing shit, and at worst probably don't care much about the dead. I imagine that a Bokor's worst fear is being turned into an undead slave like the ones that they've been producing all along, though they might also appreciate/hope for a shallow second chance.

    Yeah, the Psychopomp...I could definitely see most Mages seeking immortality playing right into that fucker's hand. A Seer in all but name. Although I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Mages seeking immortality end up worshiping the Psychopomp and becoming a Seer outright. I mean really, the reason the Psychopomp isn't a bigger player in the Ministries is only because only a very select few have a chance of fighting death off in a meaningful way, but as medical knowledge progresses and continues to push death back...

    Comment


    • #17
      The Bokor view death differently than the majority of moros do, that's what the point is. A different view can also result from a nasty trip in a Stygia while awakening, in which rather than "accept death" the awakened learned "conquer death" due to what happened (and shades fucking up their job) and maybe traumatic rather than spiritual experiences from it. Usually this kind of thing is said to create banishers, but there could be exceptions...

      I'm not going to go deep into the exarch thing, because it depends on how much the ST wants to play up the Atlantean dogma, in my case it's ambiguous. I could write an essay about how perhaps the fear of death isn't so bad and was necessary for the evolution of life, and how Ascension is an "opiate of the masses" etc etc but it won't really matter, but these could be ideas floating around in Free Council and nameless circles. If someone is going to be a lich they are already in the philosophical fringe of mage society.

      Though it's interesting how the exarch that supposedly says "fear death" is known as the psychopomp, a figure that usually represents the opposite.

      Comment


      • #18
        I fail to see how the Bokor view death differently than the majority of Moros.

        The Exarch thing doesn't really have anything to do with Atlantean dogma. It's a convenient tack-on to Atlantean dogma, but the FC rejects Atlantean dogma all over the place and they still believe in the Exarchs. Mind you, in the FC, if you become a lich they don't care as much as the Diamond, as long as they can keep you pointed at the "real" enemy.

        Comment


        • #19
          "The Exarchs" could mean something different, it could be metaphorical, such issues are spoken of among mages that are in the fringes. Think of how even in religion there is a wide range of people who believe in something to be literal vs. metaphorical. But what the FC believes is to not abandon the "Fallen world" so there can be incentive to want to remain there, fear of death or not. According to the Left-Handed Path book, liches do find sympathy in the FC, and Seers of the Throne aren't interested in immortality because they think their afterlife will deliver them to their exarch.

          One could sorta just say "You know what, you're right death is envitable, but what about having the lifespan of a star?" As I said, all immortals are aware that all forms of immortality that don't turn you into a god are conditional, and therefore impermanent, but not in the scale of normal humans.

          Mages also find liches to be a valuable resource for certain information as stated in the 2e book, such as those that dwell in the Temenos. which gives them a sort of role among mages already.

          All Moros experience death during their Awakenings. The Path of Doom begins with moving beyond the mortal coil, however briefly. Most Moros feel that death is peaceful, but some see it as rootless, frightening and without direction, a maelstrom of uncertainty and pain. Those are the Moros most likely to become Bokor and command their own armies of the dead. The Bokor philosophy is fairly simple, but heretical to the rest of the Moros Path. Death is not peaceful, say the Bokor, and it is not dignified.
          This is from the Tome of the Watchtowers.

          And if the afterlife really is hostile (well, the Underworld at least is), then there is reason to fear death.
          Last edited by GreenKitty; 04-21-2018, 01:27 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Well yeah, “Exarchs” is somewhat related to the Diamond perspective (I refuse to limit it as “Atlantean”), but the existence of Supernal intelligence that keep humans oppressed and Sleeping exists is a thing. No amount of belief will change that.

            That said, some mages finding Liches useful is different from accepting them as desirable, I think.


            MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
              Well yeah, “Exarchs” is somewhat related to the Diamond perspective (I refuse to limit it as “Atlantean”), but the existence of Supernal intelligence that keep humans oppressed and Sleeping exists is a thing. No amount of belief will change that.
              Except by the ST

              I could go on about what else the Abyss could be if you judged it by it's behavior and not what Seers say it is, but that's another thread, another time. I like my horror settings to have unreliable perspectives, especially if they come from humans. If you want to play it straight from the mouth of Awakened consensus go ahead. But our particular group is taking the Diamond teachings to be mainly belief based on some facts but moreso muddled historical records and oral traditions.

              And liches being useful just means that there is a motive to not try to murder them on sight. If they remain useful, many would turn a blind eye to them after consulting with them. Some say the Scions of God are a front for lichedom.
              Last edited by GreenKitty; 04-21-2018, 03:31 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                I can see one reason why even the most death accepting Moros might seek immortality, that being that he will choose when this life ends, not some uncaring force of Fallen World nature. It's another example of hubris, the need to be in control.

                ​Mostly though I see all Mages embarking on the quest for immortality through the backdoor, never actually giving a thought to cheating death and living forever. Instead they just don't like that their eyesight isn't as sharp as it used to be, they don't have the energy or recover as quickly as they used to, their joints hurt when they bend down, their hair is traveling north and "there's no play for Mr. Gray". In other words I see most Mages embarking on the quest for immortality by fighting the symptoms of old age, not the inevitability of death.

                ​As far as play is concerned whether or not the character will ever achieve immortality is irrelevant, unless the ST plays with the passage of time you won't play that character for more than twenty, ten or even five years in game time. What does matter is how the quest effects the character from day one with his choice of Obsessions, how it reflects in his personality and interpersonal relationships, how much he fears dyeing by violence or accident, and what form of temptations will he be unable to resist.
                ​If you treat the pursuit like a Legacy, without all of the immediate drawbacks of the Tremere sorts, declare true immortality to be the final attainment and choose your lesser attainments from things that match the theme of your path to immortality. If going the undead route than choose attainments that counter the weaknesses of the living or mimic the traits of Vampires etc...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well, if that’s how your table actively decided to run it, as opposed to something derived from wrong assumptions, then we’re all cool here.

                  Which leaves me free to pursue Mage headcanons myself, now that canon is out of the way Such as agreeing on Scions of God possibly being a Lich front being a good idea.


                  MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by GreenKitty View Post
                    The Bokor are moros and view death as undignified and cruel.
                    And?

                    Some would say the actual afterlife and underworld of the World of Darkness is nasty, cruel, and uncertain-if this is the case a mage might come to this discovery and probably go mad with the revelation.
                    It's implied that generally the Moros do indeed think that. The Underworld shouldn't exist, in fact ghosts shouldn't really exist, they're the product of people not moving on properly.

                    Also, it's not exactly a revelation, the Underworld is pretty easy to access.

                    -Want to guide younger mages and preserve wisdom and experiences that would otherwise be forgotten.
                    I think that'd be a good example of why the Moros think immortality is a bad idea. Having the same person guiding successive generations of Awakened is going to cause stagnation. Hell, it happens in the real world often enough even without anyone being immortal.

                    -The mage doesn't believe in the Atlantean dogma (and believes that the Oracles and Exarchs are at most, a precautionary metaphor), or even ascension, and believes that it's better to stay behind and focus on aiding the "Fallen" world.
                    Ascension isn't something the Awakened have to believe in, it's something they're driven towards. The Awakened are addicted to mysteries, it's not something they can turn off.

                    That I suspect is probably the biggest issue with Lichdom. The Awakened can't sit still, they're driven to seek new mysteries and find new understanding. Becoming immortal doesn't really help that.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Building on what Michael said, I think we need to draw a line between immortality and Lich-dom here. The latter being inhuman aren’t a paradigm or dogma or mainstream perspective or whatever; it’s just observed fact.

                      EDIT: For instance, Ms. Wiccums the sweet centuries-old neighborhood granny who bakes cookies for the children and gives sound advice and vivid history lessons to local mages, living via her Mastery of Time and Death, will be accepted much more easily than the Crone In The Woods, who brew longevity and youth potions out of human marrows, which she has been secretly providing the local Consilium’s political powerhouses with for centuries to strike a non-interference deal.
                      Last edited by 21C Hermit; 04-21-2018, 10:09 AM.


                      MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                        The only downsides to that is that one, Ascension is an extremely risky process which can retroactively make you to have never existed, and two, there's really no guarantees about quality of life for the Ascended. By which I mean, Mages can only speculate what becoming a Supernal symbol means. There is no real reference point they can use for what that existence is like beyond whatever level of cryptic candidness is provided by Supernal entities or documentation of the influence of the Exarchs on the Fallen. I imagine it's like Daniel from Stargate, who manages to Ascend multiple times, but he finds the experience unsatisfying and keeps coming back, and once he is back he simply has no way to explain or remember what it was like except for some vague feelings and memory fragments.
                        There is one exception to this problem, though, in Mage: an Archmage is capable of visiting the supernal realms for a short time. Also, as far as I can tell the archmage is capable of doing this as many times as he wants so long as no supernal creatures come along to kill/maim/transform him and the environment itself doesn't do it either. Granted, that is using 1e rules for archmastery, but I doubt that such an ability would change between the editions of the game.

                        So, personally, I think that an archmage could either get the taste of the supernal that he needs to reject ascension (and likely pursue excision to achieve immortality if that's his thing) or get the addiction he needs to ignore quality of life issues for pursuing ascension.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
                          There is one exception to this problem, though, in Mage: an Archmage is capable of visiting the supernal realms for a short time. Also, as far as I can tell the archmage is capable of doing this as many times as he wants so long as no supernal creatures come along to kill/maim/transform him and the environment itself doesn't do it either. Granted, that is using 1e rules for archmastery, but I doubt that such an ability would change between the editions of the game.
                          Entering the Supernal Realms costs a Willpower dot every time you cross the Godhead. A Lustrum lasts for a number of chapters equal to the successes on a Resolve + Composure roll and you need to be back in your Cintamani and successful on a Wits + Composure roll to get back out without being destroyed if you run down that timer.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                            Well, if that’s how your table actively decided to run it, as opposed to something derived from wrong assumptions, then we’re all cool here.
                            Well, yeah it’s a headcanon, as in the old definition of headcanon: which was something you did to fill in any gaps, mysteries, holes, wiggle-room, questions left in canon. But that's for another thread

                            Also, a lich by definition is a mage who seeks immortality in the fallen world. Not all of them do it by taking resources from the living, for example those who tether their ghost to their corpse but with the major drawback of behaving like a ghost (the handbook is vague about this but it seems to use the sin-eater definition of ghost).


                            Originally posted by Michael View Post

                            And?

                            I don't think you're getting my point here, just as you don't seem to be getting mine. My point is that mages are not a monolith in thought and perception of magic even within path and order. Ascension seems like a popular ideal, but I never got the impression from the description (at least how it's presented in 2e, I never read the 1e handbook) that it was something all mages desired, even that there are liches shows that truly not all mages desire that to be their existence. Different legacies showcase a variety of different goals and perceptions of magic too, including a moros one that actually shuns using matter arcanum to manipulate the fallen world. A path may drive a person toward a certain way of thinking, but it's never guaranteed. Some tremere liches are from moros. This even more true about nameless, FC, and left-handed mages who have very different theories and ideals, some of which are actively harmful and some of which aren't. There are heretics among mages too who reject much of what the Diamond teaches and have their own ideas and models about the nature of magic.

                            Anyway, regardless, I see no point in having to justify the validity of my character.


                            ​As far as play is concerned whether or not the character will ever achieve immortality is irrelevant, unless the ST plays with the passage of time you won't play that character for more than twenty, ten or even five years in game time. What does matter is how the quest effects the character from day one with his choice of Obsessions, how it reflects in his personality and interpersonal relationships, how much he fears dyeing by violence or accident, and what form of temptations will he be unable to resist.
                            ​If you treat the pursuit like a Legacy, without all of the immediate drawbacks of the Tremere sorts, declare true immortality to be the final attainment and choose your lesser attainments from things that match the theme of your path to immortality. If going the undead route than choose attainments that counter the weaknesses of the living or mimic the traits of Vampires etc...
                            Hmm I like this. I'd imagine the path isn't going to be easy of course, and there are going to be a lot of enemies made, but I do imagine it as an end goal.

                            A mage interested in immortality is going to have hell from several sides of mage society, they are not going to be open about such a thing, but might try to nudge a few conversations or search among "radicals" to find like-minded mages. A moros would have an even harder time relating with other moros due to most of them being inured to death, but might be able to relate to an acanthus better (like the idea you mentioned about reigning in one's own fate surrounding death as a motive for immortality). But the tension is part of the drama that makes it fun.
                            Last edited by GreenKitty; 04-21-2018, 12:54 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I have some thoughts.

                              Not exactly a Resurrection. Maybe the route d&d 5e took with the clone spell? It's like the initial mention of binding a ghost but maybe you could swing a full transfer of the soul with the mind as well. We know souls are transferable. It would take mastery of life and mind with high ranks in space and death to pull off but the spell could be set with a fate trigger that the moment your mage dies his souls is put into the clone which also gets a full copy of the mages mind.
                              Possible plot hook could be this is more a really good copy with the originals soul instead of just the original. So maybe the mages ghost could come back and anchor to the copy or try to take it over. I don't suspect the clone would still be awakened. Every resurrection ability I know of (Demon the Descent can do it) has them come back as a sleepwalker instead.

                              But it you insist on keeping that one guy alive permanently. Check out the Adamantine Arrow source book from 1e for inspiration. The clockwork heart artifact does pretty much what you're asking.
                              Your mage could barter with a supernal entity or something for it but I would expect this to be part of a chronicle.
                              1e version paraphrase.
                              "Clockwork Heart (Artifact •••••••••)
                              The fall of a true hero is always a terrible loss for the world. The lore of the Adamantine Arrow tells of many such crushing blows, and the tearful goodbyes offered to those who died glorious and noble deaths. But, for some, death was not the end. Indeed, a rare few were gifted — or perhaps cursed — with another chance at life. The Clockwork Heart takes the shape of its namesake, looking every bit like a mechanical human heart crafted of steel, brass, gold, silver, copper and glass. Every minuscule mechanism moves perpetually according to a design as ancient as it is unfathomable by modern science or willwork. If installed within the chest of a person dead for no more than a number of minutes equal to his Stamina (requiring his own heart to be replaced), the Clockwork Heart “restarts” the body without deleterious consequences and the individual benefits from a persistent Life 5 “Regeneration” effect. So long as the Heart remains installed in its host, he cannot truly age or die, due to supplementary Master level Death Arcanum magics: the body can “perish,” only to get back up again when the ongoing process of regeneration first restores a single box of Health."
                              Find the whole description on page 193 of the Adamantine Arrow.
                              The downsides this artifact had were the obvious fact that people would want it BADLY and the fact that for some reason (fate magic came up empty) no one who ever had the heart place in them ever did anything worthwhile after wards.

                              So there is a precedent of such an artifact existing in Awakening canon. Adapting it to 2e is not to hard. Good luck getting it though.
                              Last edited by Margul; 04-22-2018, 01:29 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Just something that came up while I was reading Werewolf 2E; Moros mages could justify their defiance of death with Death Wolf’s precedent. Don’t remember the exact legend (not with the pdf right now), but it’s something like, “Death Wolf died. This was alerting, so she shook herself up and walked away. Others were surprised, but Death Wolf just said it was about knowing what to know for.” Something to muse about.
                                Last edited by 21C Hermit; 04-22-2018, 07:30 PM.


                                MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X