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The Paths to Lichdom

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Oh yeah, completely forgot about the Psychopomp.

    So yes, fear of death is part of the world, whether death is natural or not.

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  • Poseur
    replied
    Well even if the Moros do have an understanding that death is natural etc etc. They are although not immune to the tyranny of the world, one such is the tyranny of the fear of death, a principle of the Psychopomp.

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  • GreenKitty
    replied
    Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
    Well, to nitpick the Bokor would’ve been branded Left-Handed if not for their influence within the Council, so they aren’t the best example.
    My point was that while the majority of moros don't fear or avoid "natural" death, its not impossible; mages can be very diverse in their views, or excuses. Fear of death doesn't have to be the only motivation for wanting to live thousands of years.

    As for the morality of immortality, or if it's even a good idea in the first place in MtAw, that subject has been beaten to death (pun intended) in the threads linked above.

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  • 21C Hermit
    replied
    Well, to nitpick the Bokor would’ve been branded Left-Handed if not for their influence within the Council, so they aren’t the best example.

    But yeah, immortality’s a dilemma for those who pursue it. All the known ways are either easy and reliable but immoral/inhuman, or moral/humane but hard and unreliable. For a step above of “perfect” immortality (nigh indestructibility, etc), you might as well pursue Archmastery. (But then again, archmages aren’t exactly nice people either...)

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenKitty
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    It's not quite that simple. I think the paths give their members power because in some sense they internalise the understanding of the path. A Moros mage knows that death is a necessary transition (more or less). It's not something they can negotiate. It's that very understanding that gives them their abilities.

    That doesn't mean what you describe doesn't happen, but your character is going to, on some level, know that what they're doing is a contradiction.
    The Bokor are moros and view death as undignified and cruel.

    On the other hand I think every immortal, especially vampires know that their eternal life will come to an end someday. "Immortality" is just the theoretical potential to be immortal-but there are ways for purified, vampires, mummies, tremere, and eternals can be killed, and if no one kills them, the world isn't etetnal either. So really by "immortality" you really mean "indefinate lifespan".

    Some would say the actual afterlife and underworld of the World of Darkness is nasty, cruel, and uncertain-if this is the case a mage might come to this discovery and probably go mad with the revelation.

    I think here are some motivations for mages to become immortal:

    -They hang out with immortals.
    -Want to see the future of humanity.
    -Want to guide younger mages and preserve wisdom and experiences that would otherwise be forgotten.
    -The mage doesn't believe in the Atlantean dogma (and believes that the Oracles and Exarchs are at most, a precautionary metaphor), or even ascension, and believes that it's better to stay behind and focus on aiding the "Fallen" world.
    Last edited by GreenKitty; 04-20-2018, 10:43 PM.

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    The only downsides to that is that one, Ascension is an extremely risky process which can retroactively make you to have never existed, and two, there's really no guarantees about quality of life for the Ascended. By which I mean, Mages can only speculate what becoming a Supernal symbol means. There is no real reference point they can use for what that existence is like beyond whatever level of cryptic candidness is provided by Supernal entities or documentation of the influence of the Exarchs on the Fallen. I imagine it's like Daniel from Stargate, who manages to Ascend multiple times, but he finds the experience unsatisfying and keeps coming back, and once he is back he simply has no way to explain or remember what it was like except for some vague feelings and memory fragments.

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  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    Largely, Liches are also doing something wrong.
    A lifespan might not be enough for many Sleepers, but Mages have the drive, the power and the inspiration to seek what they want in their finite time.
    Unless you suffer the tragedy of an Awakening in your twilight years, most Mages should have enough 'natural' time to achieve what they want in the world.
    Curing your natural diseases, and 'naturally' extending your lifespan by curing that which would otherwise kill you, isn't really a big deal to most Mages.
    Why suffer through cancer, why not fix your failing heart, fix your blood, refine your mind to forestall dementia.

    But if you get past those, past the edge of mortal age, and you haven't achieved everything you want in your mortal lifespan, then you either have some issues with death, or more ambition than you know what to do with.
    Such age, such experience, the phenomenal would likely hold few secrets to you. If you have ambition, truly channel that ambition.

    Chase the Imperial Mysteries.
    Seek Ascension.

    Do not suffer through the indignity of an eternal 'Fallen' existence.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by GreenKitty View Post
    So I take it that even undeath doesn't get a pass due to being a special state of being?
    There's plenty of ways to do it and not be branded left handed and hunted down.

    But it doesn't mean everyone's going to be asking you to be the judge when it comes to mage/mage arbitration.

    That said, unless you wear an 'Ask Me About My Immortality' t-shirt, it might never come up. The character you suggested seems to be trying to become immortal. Say they start at age 26 and it takes time to do so, you may end up with a 55 year old immortal who's only been immortal for one year. Just being immortal doesn't mean you're automatically thousands of years old.
    Last edited by nofather; 04-20-2018, 05:57 PM.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by GreenKitty View Post
    but there may be a small minority that do, the characters I tend to play are skeptics, heretics, outsiders, and intellectual rogues.
    It's not quite that simple. I think the paths give their members power because in some sense they internalise the understanding of the path. A Moros mage knows that death is a necessary transition (more or less). It's not something they can negotiate. It's that very understanding that gives them their abilities.

    That doesn't mean what you describe doesn't happen, but your character is going to, on some level, know that what they're doing is a contradiction.

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenKitty
    replied
    So I take it that even undeath doesn't get a pass due to being a special state of being?

    Thanks for the suggestions, I am already aware of the taboo against immortality, and that most Moros do not wish to become immortal (but there may be a small minority that do, the characters I tend to play are skeptics, heretics, outsiders, and intellectual rogues. In the case of this specific character it's also because something didn't go quite right during his awakening.)

    Originally posted by nofather View Post
    they look at mages like mages look at Sleepers
    Yup.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Mages typically have a dim view of other Mages attempting to become immortal. First there’s the fact that Moros tend to see Death as a transformative thing to be embraced rather than an end to be avoided, and their views are going to be known to any other Mages they associate with. Then there’s the cultural history of being burned by the Tremere, the Morpheans, and most other forms of lichdom at some point.

    It’s not like you’ll be burned at the stake for pursuing immortality, but you’re likely to be treated with some suspicion.

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by GreenKitty View Post
    Most of those ideas deal with living forever as you would a living being, but what about something a little more transhumanist like transforming into a different type of being?
    That's what some of the legacies do, like the Scions of God and the Katsinam Suukya, turning them into ephemeral (or part ephemeral) entities.

    How would mage society view these types of defying death by becoming something that isn't touched by death or exist in a state between life and death? (I wonder if the latter might be more acceptable to mainstream moros beliefs since they shun the idea of immortality but what about undeath?)
    Covered in one of the threads, 'For the same reason archmasters are banned from holding political offices in the Pentacle: They, like liches, are sufficiently removed from the human experience that they look at mages like mages look at Sleepers. Both sects in the Pentacle hate that. For different reasons.'

    Even if someone unlocked immortality in a way that wasn't objectionable to some mage, it's still rather unfair for them to hold office.

    Leave a comment:


  • GreenKitty
    replied
    Thanks, after reading some of those, I have a better idea about what I might be looking for.

    Most of those ideas deal with living forever as you would a living being, but what about something a little more transhumanist like transforming into a different type of being?

    If one where to remove both death and life from a subject would that result in undeath? How would mage society view these types of defying death by becoming something that isn't touched by death or exist in a state between life and death? (I wonder if the latter might be more acceptable to mainstream moros beliefs since they shun the idea of immortality but what about undeath?)

    Leave a comment:


  • nofather
    replied
    I don't know what Ascension did. Immortality has issues even beyond 'supernatural backfiring.'

    Originally posted by GreenKitty View Post
    In-character what he plans to do (but this after a huge timejump) is seek out and study immortals of any kind he can run into, and it may be possible to turn his into a homebrew legacy.

    So I am posting this for suggestions on how to go about it, and also I'd like to know more about those vaguer options presented in the 2e book, and maybe if the Ascension liche can be adapted to Awakening.
    The most obvious way to do it is to seek out and study immortals. Find patterns in names or lineages, people that seem to be just like their grandparent or great grandparent. Look for vampires and demonic pacts. There's an entire book, Immortals, with a variety of 'out-of-context' immortals, and they're scattered through the 'in context' books. Mage core has Baphomet, one of the first books, Chicago, has Olivia Citysmith the Iron Master
    who made a deal for 'unending youth and vigor.'


    Then make a homebrew legacy, the rules are in the core book and various fans have expanded on them in the forum.

    And bring it all up to your storyteller.

    In case you're just curious about what the setting says about immortality, or are gearing up for some morality debate, a quick search has pointed out half a dozen similar threads.

    Why is immortality such a big deal?

    What are the options for Mages not dying of old age?

    Unconventional Immortality

    [Mystery] Immortality.

    Immortality and Legacies or Am I a Lich and if so what's your Problem?

    Clothed in Immortality

    Leave a comment:

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