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Psychic Domination being "obviously magic"

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
    Guardians would totally Inure, it feeds into their martyr complex.
    It does the opposite. Their ideology is all about sacrificing their wisdom, and they believe every paradox is a bit more of the Abyss coming into the world.

    Protecting their wisdom by inviting more paradox is inverting their beliefs.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Michael View Post
      It does the opposite. Their ideology is all about sacrificing their wisdom, and they believe every paradox is a bit more of the Abyss coming into the world.

      Protecting their wisdom by inviting more paradox is inverting their beliefs.
      Risking Paradox isn't the same as causing Paradox and they can contain those in order to prevent manifesting the Abyss in the Fallen. It makes them more effective at their "job" and allows them to damage their bodies in exchange for their soul so that they don't deteriorate into being one of the Mad too quickly.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by SimonPip View Post
        Is Psychic Domination always an Act of Hubris on sleepers, even if the order isn't counter to the nature of the subject?
        Yes, because binding a sentient being to a task is an Act of Hubris.

        The order is recognized by the subject as being foreign
        Indeed.

        would be obviously supernatural, thus causing a potential breaking point
        This wouldn't always necessarily be true, but it would be much more often than not, I think.

        I ask because one of my players insists that it should be possible to give orders with the only Act of Hubris possibly being forcing a sapient being...
        Can a single spell hit multiple AoH? It's a single act. I've always just used the 'worst' level triggered by any given AoH in my games.

        Adding to that point, the same player is generally unhappy with me following the "no modifications" statement.
        So, that's not actually a rule in the book, but it's pretty common sense and reasonable. The only rule is that you can't carbon-copy a spell and just have it use a different spell factor.

        Any advice on dealing with a player who insists that written spells should be freely modifiable?
        I dunno. That's a people thing not a game thing. Talk it out. If you really want to insist that written spells exist exactly as they are without modification, establish that understanding and stick to it. If it's a dealbreaker for the player, then the deal is broken. If not...no use pouting about it.

        If you decide it's not that big of a deal, let them modify prewritten spells.

        (I've tried dealing with it in-game by clarifying that their characters probably also find this weird, and that it may be a Mystery worth investigating)
        How do you present prewritten spells in game? Normally I represent them as relatively widely known magical effects, or rather as the most common 'rotes' that most mages can improvise if needed because they know the effects are possible due to the ubiquity of these rotes. If you do something similar, your way of addressing it IC is excellent, I think.

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        • #19
          So how do you give a mental command in the game and it not be recognized as such by the subject?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Johnny Awesome View Post
            So how do you give a mental command in the game and it not be recognized as such by the subject?
            I don't think anyone has said that's a thing.
            I know I didn't.

            I disputed that recognizing the order as 'foreign' would, in all cases, count as obviously supernatural. And I dispute that from the perspective of someone with a family history of schizophrenia. If I heard a foreign voice commanding me to do something, and compelling me to obey, I wouldn't recognize it as something supernatural.

            I'd just be surprised it hadn't started about ten years ago.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Johnny Awesome View Post
              So how do you give a mental command in the game and it not be recognized as such by the subject?
              By using Compelling?

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              • #22
                So a 1-dot practice is better than 2-dot practice? That doesn't make sense.

                To clarify what I mean: It's a pretty standard trope for a wizard to mind-control someone temporarily without them knowing about it. In Mage it doesn't seem like you can do this, which I think is more limiting than I would like.

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                • #23
                  A Compelling spell could introduce a vague idea, but no real pressure to actually act on that idea. You might get the guard to take a quick whiz around the corner if he already needs to go, but even that might fail if he's disciplined and knows a break is coming up. He might also just call someone to relieve him. His duty, I mean. Guard duty.

                  Edit: If I were to design such a spell I'd let it mechanically lower the Exceptional threshold when trying to convince the subject of an idea specified at the casting of the spell. It makes them more receptible to the idea, but not actually easier to convince to do anything they don't already want to do.
                  Last edited by Tessie; 05-14-2018, 07:02 PM.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Johnny Awesome View Post
                    So a 1-dot practice is better than 2-dot practice? That doesn't make sense.

                    To clarify what I mean: It's a pretty standard trope for a wizard to mind-control someone temporarily without them knowing about it. In Mage it doesn't seem like you can do this, which I think is more limiting than I would like.
                    So add a Reach option.

                    ​Also, what Tessie said.

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                    • #25
                      Take a cue from Inception. Go into the Astral, invade their Onerios, and set about changing things to make them think it was their idea from the get go.


                      (he/him/his)


                      Backer #2010

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                      • #26
                        Giving an overriding order and not having the subject be aware of that seems like it's closer to actively reshaping the subject's mind. It's in depth and might require Weaving or even Patterning. Alternatively you could add it as a Reach as Mrmdubois suggested, similar to as if you were combi-casting it with a Veiling spell.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ElvesofZion View Post
                          Take a cue from Inception. Go into the Astral, invade their Onerios, and set about changing things to make them think it was their idea from the get go.
                          Hmm, Doesnt the onerios of an awake person look like what they are currently doing/thinking? If you are there just viewing things then its probably fine but as soon as you attempt to cause a change i think (and forgive me if sleepers dont have a daimon/higher self) some part of that person will see/feel it as "foreign".

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                          • #28
                            And if you try to make a change in a Sleeper's Oneiros you'd better not use magic.

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                            • #29
                              I'd have to re-read some stuff for all the specifics (which I should do anyway since I'm about to play a Mastigos). But yeah, there are cautions: make sure their asleep, be careful with magic, etc. I still think its a fun and interesting way to make someone do a thing as if it was their own idea, without needed higher levels of Mind.


                              (he/him/his)


                              Backer #2010

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                              • #30
                                I think that Patterning makes sense or combo-ing with a Veiling effect seems ok to me. Either way you need Gnosis 3 to do it, which I'm fine with.

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