Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[Dark Eras] How Orders Conquared the World?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [Dark Eras] How Orders Conquared the World?

    So we had a big discussion in Werewolf forum if Diamond Orders should simply be anywhere on globe, once created (probably) in Ancient Rome. On one hand, Arcana can let mages do (almost) anything so any Awakened can go whenever you want it, spreading Orders ideas. On the other hand, we have evidence in Princes of Conquated Land in Dark Eras Companion - or material in 1E corebook on Boston mages - that Atlantis Orders where not directly connected all over the world once Orders come to being and it was more a process of spread for those ideas. More, in Mutapa Empire from Princes Era Europeans brought proper Orders with them only in 15th century AD - native mages follows only their Darshanas cults versions, not Orders hailing from Greco-Roman times.

    And now we have real dillemma - Should Norse mages at the dawn of Vikings Era have any Orders in their society? Norseman, as people, are part of migration of Germanic people from 1st century that was 'stucked' on the North. There are evidence there was small, but real trade, from time to time with continent. Would this be enough for Atlantean Orders to 'take whole North', going from Rome, by Germanic barbarians, to the Norse? Even when contact of Norseman with continent was almost non-existing?

    I think answer should be 'No', as other way around it would mean that Diamond Order long before reached and converted Mutapa Empire than Dark Eras canon described first contact of 15th century AD - as Ancient Rome have coastal Africa colonies in Empire times ( 1st century BCE - 4th century AD ), so in 500 years they should conquered whole Africa if we go with reasoning 'mages can do anything and surely they spread Orders further and further'.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-21-2018, 06:23 PM.


    LGBT+ in CoD games
    Dark Eras fan stuff hub ( with Eras inside ):
    Byzantine Empire in Middle Ages ( 330–1453 A.D.)
    Conquest of Paradise – Portugal and Spain in 15th century and their conquests
    My stuff for VtR 2E, WtF 2E, MtAw 2E & BtP

  • #2
    I think your understanding of how the Orders spread is wrong. The Orders didn't conquer, they were simply more mobile and easily syncretized into as many local Mage customs as possible. As has been pointed out more than once, Mages don't typically fight each other violently because that's a really good way to end up in the Mage equivalent of a nuclear war. So the more likely course of action is cautious diplomacy, an exchange of ideas, some level of syncretism as common ground is found, and then these two groups decide they're in essentially the same magical tribe, an Order as they call it. That just keeps happening over and over again, and really it since it's not conquest it only needs a very tenuous level of connection, and as you've noted Mages can do pretty much anything so once a connection is established to anywhere, there will be communication across any distance. Not even in terms of Space magic, since the Astral also conveniently provides entire realms to meet and communicate in without going anywhere physically.

    Comment


    • #3
      ^ All of that ^

      Even the use of the word conquered makes me feel like you POV is skewed. If that works for your table, that’s perfectly fine, but don’t expect textual support in future books.


      Freelancer - Dark Eras 2
      He/His Pronouns
      CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon (TBA) | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

      Comment


      • #4
        wyrdhamster I just checked out the other thread this one spawned and feel a bit bad for even responding, the people over there did a fine job of answering your questions and you just refused to believe them, and now the same thing is just going to happen over here.

        Comment


        • #5
          It's the circle of life.


          Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
          Work Blog Coming Soon
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

          Comment


          • #6
            Culturally-localized Orders conquering or fighting with each other is more of an Ascension thing, Wyrd. And even there Mages from distant places had plenty of ways to communicate, but in the classic World of Darkness everyone's at least a bit of a jerk.

            In Awakening, it's as it has been pointed out, with mages with resonant ideas realizing that their point of view is similar enough to justify an association. Cultural flavor is there, of course, but if two Awakened cultures interact for long enough, their members will soon realize who shares their beliefs and could be an ally. Then syncretism, common grounds and years of collaboration, until one day they all agree it was all part of the same Order. Cultural clashes aren't really something that has a cause within the Diamond Orders themselves, but rather within more mundane cultural differences or personal perspectives.

            As for why Mages from all over the world would want to explore and push the boundaries of the known world in a way that allows them to get in contact with others way before their respective mortal societies would...well, that's because they're Mages. Those curious nerds are never satisfied.

            EDIT: And now I checked it too and feel kinda dumb. Seriously Wyrd, if you don't like the answers people give you and have in mind something you feel would work better at your table or you enjoy more/believe makes more sense for your story, it's fine.
            Last edited by Cinder; 05-21-2018, 07:23 PM.


            Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

            I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

            This is what I'm working on

            Comment


            • #7
              Okay, so-

              * reads other posts again

              All that needs to be said has been said, it seems.

              So changing the perspective a little bit: if any of the Orders do some active conquering over integrating, it’d be the Seers.

              Yes, this loops back to the original issue at hand since the Seers didn’t properly form until relatively recently, but I’m imagining proto-Seer cults subverting honest belief in local gods to self-enslavement to the Tyrants.

              Another perspective: the Tremere are said to have explicitly devoured Reaper Legacies all over the world, so there’s an element of conquering there.


              MtAw Homebrew: Even more Legacies, updated to 2E

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                So changing the perspective a little bit: if any of the Orders do some active conquering over integrating, it’d be the Seers.

                Yes, this loops back to the original issue at hand since the Seers didn’t properly form until relatively recently, but I’m imagining proto-Seer cults subverting honest belief in local gods to self-enslavement to the Tyrants.

                Another perspective: the Tremere are said to have explicitly devoured Reaper Legacies all over the world, so there’s an element of conquering there.
                Damn, in my reply I totally forgot about Seers and Tremere. Talk about tunnel vision.

                Thanks for bringing them into the discussion, good points are being made there.


                Cinder's Comprehensive Collection of Creations - Homebrew Hub

                I write about Beast: The Primordial a lot

                This is what I'm working on

                Comment


                • #9
                  I do want to bring up a point in regards to the Hamster meta-discussion to simply point out that it's really not like this shit hasn't been explained before.

                  Adding my voice to the chorus of "If that's how you want to do it, just do it". You have got to stop wasting our time by asking us things and then ignoring us.
                  Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-21-2018, 07:41 PM.


                  Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                  Work Blog Coming Soon
                  The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                  Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Also an excellent point as to why framing the Diamond as conquerors doesn't fit. Really Wyrd, you are super focused on th supremacy of Euro-Roman orders, but unlike pretty much every other splat this doesn't make sense in Mage. Mages are capable of globalizing, so the Orders are global phenomenon that have been interpreted locally.

                    Everyone loves to talk about wars in history, but you'll be hard pressed to find a historian who won't argue trade is more important. Same thing here,


                    Freelancer - Dark Eras 2
                    He/His Pronouns
                    CofD booklists: Beast I Changeling | Demon (TBA) | Deviant (TBA) | Geist l Hunter l Mage | Mummy | Promethean | Vampire | Werewolf (WIP)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Seriously. The dominance of the main sects has less to do with RAWR RAWR and more to do with "HOLY SHIT, THESE GUYS HAVE THE LIMITED EDITION LIGHTSABERS, IT'S SO COOL YOU GUYS."


                      Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                      Work Blog Coming Soon
                      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                      Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
                        Seriously. The dominance of the main sects has less to do with RAWR RAWR and more to do with "HOLY SHIT, THESE GUYS HAVE THE LIMITED EDITION LIGHTSABERS, IT'S SO COOL YOU GUYS."
                        That seriously cracked me up, just amazing.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                          That seriously cracked me up, just amazing.
                          Thank you.


                          Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                          Work Blog Coming Soon
                          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                          Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't know what happened in the other thread, but I'm confused by what Wyrdhamster is asking this time? If they don't want the Orders to have reached Scandinavia at that time then...then that's that...?

                            The Orders, though, didn't go around proselytizing their ideas. The Orders exist because different cultures of Mages met and exchanged ideas. They didn't then go around preaching Diamond ideals, but when they reached a new culture they were able to say, "Yeah, we understand everything you're talking about and have libraries and warehouses full of Artifacts. Let's share ideas."

                            That...was the whole point of To the Strongest, wasn't it?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reseru View Post
                              I don't know what happened in the other thread, but I'm confused by what Wyrdhamster is asking this time? If they don't want the Orders to have reached Scandinavia at that time then...then that's that...?

                              The Orders, though, didn't go around proselytizing their ideas. The Orders exist because different cultures of Mages met and exchanged ideas. They didn't then go around preaching Diamond ideals, but when they reached a new culture they were able to say, "Yeah, we understand everything you're talking about and have libraries and warehouses full of Artifacts. Let's share ideas."

                              That...was the whole point of To the Strongest, wasn't it?
                              Summed up in one. The only thing missing is that Hamster disbelieves that Scandinavia would have gotten in contact with the Diamond Orders or Exarch Cults.
                              Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-21-2018, 08:01 PM.


                              Sean K.I.W. Steele, Freelance Writer
                              Work Blog Coming Soon
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Male/neutral pronouns accepted, female pronouns enjoyed.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X