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[Dark Eras] How Orders Conquared the World?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

    And if we have 'few centuries earlier' we come to numbers of like 2nd century AD - implying that Diamond, with their whole Greco-Roman trappings will be on rise in 8th century Vikings Era - it's 5 centuries times we talk here.
    That year would be fair to assume to be about the time for first contact between the two groups. No it's not sure that those "trappings will be on the rise". Culture just ain't copied like that. Mages don't just copy the predominated view of another mage culture, it's a process that need time, distance and interaction etc. Norse mages are necessarily no more Roman then their sleeper counterpart.

    Time and time again in this very topic I was pointed that I should not look over Christianization of culture ( or Islamization? ) for indication of Diamond Orders main influence in the area. I would agree that Diamond conversion should end with full Christianization of North - but other forumers told many times it's not.
    It was just a comparison that change can take time, not that these separate things need to coincidence with one another. And to be precise, Christianity on paper ain't the same thing as non-paganism among the populace. We still have pre-christian, pagan traditions although we'd been "christians" for almost a millennium.

    It's implied few times in 1E and 2E books - full analysis is in topic History of Awakened. See parts from 200 BCE. There is even quote in Adamantine Arrow Order Origin write-up in 2E corebook.

    'The Adamantine Arrow is both the oldest and youngest Order. Like most of the Diamond Orders, the Arrow’s core formed in the Hellenistic era, circa 200 BCE, primarily from an Indian school of magical philosophy called the Vajrastra (“Thunderbolt Weapons”). '
    Yes, I know it's implied at places. But as far as I know, nowhere does it point to Rome, or even the Roman Republic. The Hellenistic World is huge and cover large sways of land that never was touched by Roman borders. In 200 BCE the Roman Republic was not much larger the modern Italy. It's unlikely that the Diamond was formed in Rome, and the foundations of the Orders are definitely not roman.

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     Of course. ;) More to it, as Arabic lands are ex-Roman Empire provinces, I would say that Diamond was there in 100 BCE, 1st century AD, at most.
    Yes, but they are also Persian and Hindu lands, African and philistine lands... I'd say it's more likely it was formed somewhere in mesopotamia or around there, modern day Iran,Iraq, Pakistan and or around, far more likely in Persia or some Greek state then in Rome. (Unless there's a word of God that says it's in Rome, but that would just be eurocentric :P )

    All my Mage books point that Diamond Orders use Latin and Greek based titles and Roman-based law system in Consilia - that is also Latin based term.
    I was talking about the local orders/cults being subsumed into the diamond already in ~7-9th century. The titles are still today local and it has probably more with the spread of Romanesque culture then mages themselves. Norse (arab/frankish/iranian/axum/even roman and greek) ) mages are far more likely to use local tradition, customs and titles then any form of Concilia we would recognize today. This is like saying that everything in the Mage setting should have English names because everything is named in English. Most names are derivatives from Greek/latin/indian and a few other languages.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Poseur View Post
      Mages don't just copy the predominated view of another mage culture, it's a process that need time, distance and interaction etc. Norse mages are necessarily no more Roman then their sleeper counterpart.
      Norse mages are just much more Roman than their sleeper counterpart simply because mages meet other mages. Where going to the South for Sleepers is years long journey - so only some war bands may meet Roman culture - Awakened, just as pointed in this very topic, can teleport on the other end of continent.

      Originally posted by Poseur View Post
      It was just a comparison that change can take time, not that these separate things need to coincidence with one another. And to be precise, Christianity on paper ain't the same thing as non-paganism among the populace. We still have pre-christian, pagan traditions although we'd been "christians" for almost a millennium.
      There is difference between 'We, Norse mages, have our own local cults and magical traditions' and 'We all are in Diamond now, I just use Odin in magic style cause I like him'.

      Originally posted by Poseur View Post
      I was talking about the local orders/cults being subsumed into the diamond already in ~7-9th century. The titles are still today local and it has probably more with the spread of Romanesque culture then mages themselves. Norse (arab/frankish/iranian/axum/even roman and greek) ) mages are far more likely to use local tradition, customs and titles then any form of Concilia we would recognize today. This is like saying that everything in the Mage setting should have English names because everything is named in English. Most names are derivatives from Greek/latin/indian and a few other languages.
      This is... fairly good point. Still, if Diamond use trappings of local culture - and those Darshanas Cults are similar to the Archetypes Orders use - what's the difference between Diamond Orders and Darshanas Cults in the first place? Beside talking about Atlantis?


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      • #63
        Originally posted by Poseur View Post
        In 200 BCE the Roman Republic was not much larger the modern Italy. It's unlikely that the Diamond was formed in Rome, and the foundations of the Orders are definitely not roman.
        Year 200 BCE is literally 1 year after Second Punic War between Rome and Carthage, where Rome takes one third of Middeterenian Sea, starting centuries long conquest of Europe. It's the literal start of Roman power in Europe and greatest Empire on the continent in that time. In year 200 BCE map looks like this:





        Only 150 years later, Rome conquared half of Europe and Minor Asia. In 30 BCE maps look like this:




        Originally posted by Poseur View Post
        Yes, but they are also Persian and Hindu lands, African and philistine lands... I'd say it's more likely it was formed somewhere in mesopotamia or around there, modern day Iran,Iraq, Pakistan and or around, far more likely in Persia or some Greek state then in Rome. (Unless there's a word of God that says it's in Rome, but that would just be eurocentric :P )
        To the Strongest Dark Era points that in Greece, Persia and India you have various Darshanas Cults that are more and more interlinked, each year from year 300 BCE. To this day I do not remember single pointing of creation of Orders in books, but Diamond quickly can convert Darshanas Cults in those lands as those are already Hellenistic, from Alexander's Empire. And pointing that Orders were created in Greece is also eurocentric.
        Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-24-2018, 01:19 PM.


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        • #64
          Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
          Awakened, just as pointed in this very topic, can teleport on the other end of continent.
          The way sympathy works means this is not remotely as simple as it sounds.


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          • #65
            Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

            Norse mages are just much more Roman than their sleeper counterpart simply because mages meet other mages. Where going to the South for Sleepers is years long journey - so only some war bands may meet Roman culture - Awakened, just as pointed in this very topic, can teleport on the other end of continent.
            You make this easier then it is. And even so, there would be a thousand (probably way more) sleepers that made these journeys then there are mages. People, simple meet other people.
            You're making your whole argument by saying that I would be Chinese just because I've met a few of them and they are a way larger culture then mine and I'd studied mandarin for a few months.


            This is... fairly good point. Still, if Diamond use trappings of local culture - and those Darshanas Cults are similar to the Archetypes Orders use - what's the difference between Diamond Orders and Darshanas Cults in the first place? Beside talking about Atlantis?
            I'm not sure that Darshana cults are a thing outside the context of the Strongest era. I do believe context and coherence around a common culture, eg. Diamond/atlantean dogma would be the largest difference beside scale. There is a point to be made that the Great Cults and Darshanas will converge and evolve into the Diamond, with more outside influence over time and some things winning over other and other things lost from the Diamond. Part of these cults and Darshanas might be around today in their own right, but in different form even.

            Year 200 BCE is literally 1 year after Second Punic War between Rome and Carthage, where Rome takes half of Middeteranin Sea, starting centuries long conquest of Europe.
            It's the literal start of Roman power in Europe and greatest Empire on the continent in that time

            Yes, I'm aware. The coast of Spain is also part of it, so slightly larger then modern Italy is still a thing, even if it's a slight understatment. However it's a far less faulty one then "half the Mediterranean". I'm still not following how the the birth of the Diamond Orders around 200 would be in Rome just because Rome will be a great superpower in Europe, when almost all their (the orders) cultural influence comes from a melting pot about 2000-3000 km away. Rome might be a cool and great empire in it's own might, but not much speaks for that to be the cradle of the Diamond Orders. Surely they where in Rome, they grew and evolved there but their culture and their mythology and their philosophy comes from the east.
            Last edited by Poseur; 05-24-2018, 01:18 PM.

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            • #66
              In relation to main subtopic about Vikings mages - this how looks map of Europe in year 750 AD.





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              • #67
                Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                Diamond Orders, Greco-Roman mages
                STOP. CALLING. THEM. GRECO-ROMAN.

                The Diamond emerged from a fucking fusion of Greek, Persian, Egyptian, and Indian cultures. You would be more accurate calling them Middle Eastern mages, and you would still be wrong.

                STOP. CALLING. THEM. GRECO-ROMAN.


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                • #68
                  Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post

                  STOP. CALLING. THEM. GRECO-ROMAN.
                  I was talking here in context of Norse mages meeting European Diamond mages - that would be raised in Greco-Roman culture of Medieval Christanity. Stop being needlessly unpleasant.
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-25-2018, 04:42 AM.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
                    All my Mage books point that Diamond Orders use Latin and Greek based titles and Roman-based law system in Consilia - that is also Latin based term.
                    I just want to point out that the Order books are written from a twenty-first century standpoint. Just because the Mages of today use a bunch of Greco-Roman terminology doesn’t mean that they used those exact same terms during the Roman era, or made everyone else use ‘em. Western Civilization post-Renaissance has just had a huge crush on that time period, which was likely (and here I am making assumptions) reflected in the formal codifications of the Diamond Orders post-Renaissance.

                    Just because the Arrow draws its roots back to the Hellenistic wonderworkers of Alexander’s court does not mean that the Diamond Orders of today are an unbroken chain of two-thousand-year-old dogma.

                    Rather, the 21st-century Arrow owes his heritage to the many willworkers who have come before: the legionnaires and athletes of Rome who honed themselves in a culture falling apart; the hunters and warriors of India who sought to bring the external world and the internal world into harmony; and, yes, the men of the north who knew that the gods themselves were doomed to die and that the worth of a man lay in what he did and how he served his community.

                    These various traditions swirl and mix, and we who work magic today do so in their shadows, and we claim all of them under the banner of the Arrow (but one they would not have recognized; an arrow is but a symbol, one of many).

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                      I was talking here in context of Norse mages meeting European Diamond mages - that would be raised in Greco-Roman culture of Medieval Christanity. Stop being needlessly unpleasant.
                      Unpleasant perhaps, but needless not. Saying the European mages are just “Greco-Roman” is like saying Americans are English.

                      And to nitpick just a bit more: While the Diamond uses Roman/Greek titles, a lot of their actual concepts and tenets behind them are from Hindu and/or Buddhist beliefs. (And guess which culture uses the word ‘diamond’ as a metaphor for divine perfection). If we start assigning a clear-cut cultural association with the Diamond because of portions of its society/culture/beliefs, I’d go for the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Which I shouldn’t, since then I’d be ignoring all the Greek, Persian, Kemetic etc influences within.

                      Just take it easy, man. Mapping perfect, one-to-one correspondences between present/past real life groups and the various supernaturals’ factions in the CofD is trying to weave gold out of straw. I’d dare not try it until I get my hands on a magic lamp or something and thus save myself some frustration, and I highly recommend you do too
                      Last edited by 21C Hermit; 05-25-2018, 07:26 AM.


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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post

                        I was talking here in context of Norse mages meeting European Diamond mages - that would be raised in Greco-Roman culture of Medieval Christanity. Stop being needlessly unpleasant.
                        Dude, if you are talking about Diamond mages literally from the Greco-Roman region of the world, you have got to say that more clearly. The way you have been doing it this entire time, it has sounded like you were conflating the two, with you even at one point deliberately saying the Diamond was basically a Greco-Roman affair with some Hindu touches without explaining that the reason it's like this is because you are thinking about the fact that these mages in your conflict are Greco-Roman and therefore biased towards that interpretation.

                        EDIT: Pro-tip, if you are talking about areas, call them Greek or Roman, not Greco-Roman. Given the context you are looking at, you mean Roman. You want to call them Roman Diamond mages rather than Greco-Roman Diamond mages because Greco-Roman in this context describes a cultural foundation rather than a political/regional one.

                        This mishap also still does not excuse the fact that mages are often...not divorced, but at an odd angle from their home societies. You gotta remember, the very nature of Awakening casts all societal norms into question, and while it is still human nature to cling to the familiar, mages are still likely to be among the more taboo of their culture. All of this is before you account for how the Diamond operates, the fact that Diamond philosophy at the time heavily diverges from Roman Christian thought, and a wide number of other things.
                        Last edited by ArcaneArts; 05-25-2018, 10:12 PM.


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                        • #72
                          Considering the known influences of the Diamond Orders, it makes more sense for the Latin influences you keep pointing out to have actually been acquired AFTER the fall of the Roman Empire.

                          Think about it; the Diamond Orders organize themselves around the communal 'shadow name' of Atlantis. That is to say, they use "fallen empire" as a unifying resonating symbol, and even more specifically "idealized past". I can easily imagine 8th century European Mages looking back at the ruins of Rome, reading the ancient texts of that fallen empire, and saying "As High Speech is to Atlantis and Atlantis is to Us, so Latin is to Rome, and Rome is to the Sleepers", and then adopting Latin because of this symbolism.

                          Meanwhile, actual Roman-era mages are more likely to use other, more apt metaphors of their times. For example, between the 1st and 4th centuries, various 'mystery cults' with purported Eastern roots were popular; Mithras (Persian origin), Cybele (Anatolian origin), and Isis (Egyptian origin) are only the most famous examples, each with links to previous fallen empires. These would strengthen the Indian and Persian influences to instrumental in the founding of the Diamond Orders, and so it is unlikely that Roman mages would see every-day Vulgar Latin as holding any special standing.

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                          • #73
                            Generally speaking, in a Gnostic context syncretism is pretty much a given, because one of the first things one has to made peace with is that the world and all that's within are flawed because of the lie and the oppression taints everything one previously considered to be obvious. So one has both to let go and accept everything, because wisdom is something whose glimpses can only be seen by trying to look through the illusions. For someone to believe "One True Way" (or even a "One True Destination") and trying to impose it on others because they consider it better is both a betrayal and a mistake. Since Awakening writers did their homeworks and have been getting better at it over the years, this applies to Mage too. Or Demon, for that matter.

                            Orders work because they're a social platform that offers both infrastructure and patterns to follow, places where like-minded people can gather to try and navigate their lives as Mages, but the Awakened community as a whole mostly learned a long time ago how moot is to ascribe unmalleable wordly cultural ramification to the search for Mysteries. Dogma, even within the Pentacle, is a tool and like all tools has its uses and its dangers. I mean, if your ideals directly oppose those of, for example, the Adamantine Arrow, and nobody there believes there's potential to turn you into a passionate Arrow or has other personal reasons to want you in, then none of its members would care for you to join nor agree. You're not in the club, not interested and there's no point in wasting each other's time. Good day and good bye, try to not become an enemy of ours if possible.

                            (The Seers play a different game, obviously)

                            Ascension was different both because the WoD was different in background and attitude, almost everything in the setting was ruined by a variable number of jerkasses (hey, I'm saying this as someone who still loves, believes and has hope for the Garou nation, so don't sweat here) and because, while there was some Gnosticism in there, the occult practices that gave shape to it were of most often of another kind. Also because those were the 90s, with all their good and bad.

                            But where some Mage behaviors made more sense in Ascension, they just have no place in Awakening
                            Last edited by Cinder; 05-25-2018, 09:10 PM.


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                            • #74
                              What Raz, Cinder, Hermit, and Gwyn said.

                              Diamond mages in the Roman Empire were largely bound up in the Mystery Cults that syncretised external and ancient elements into Roman culture. Thinking of Rome as analogue to Atlantis was something medieval and later European mages did. Much as the Romans themselves had a hard on for the mysterious Etruscans, and would be baffled by the image of the glorious civilisation 17th century englishmen had.


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                              • #75
                                I think one area of confusion is reading the corebook description of Awakened society under the Diamond, and then assuming that the Diamond was always like that. That's just as fallacious as reading a description of modern English society, and then assuming that what you read also holds true for 15th century English society. Societies are never, EVER, standing still. Society IS movement of ideas. Societies are in a constant state of flux and dialogue, both internal and external. Even those that are geographically isolated to extremes (and Scandinavia was never THAT isolated) are in a constant internal dialogue, which brings about change.

                                The Diamond orders weren't really born in a century and then already had all the names and precepts described in the corebook. It's doubtful that they were even 'born' like that at all, in the same way that you can't point to a single inarguable point at which the Eastern Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire. Later scholars point at earlier versions of their society and say "these two stages are different", but that doesn't mean they can point to a single difference. They CONSTRUCT the difference in their pointing.

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