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  • #16
    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
    Yep, for example, lets say you have a flock of origami birds. With a Ruling of Matter you can make them fly and do precise maneuvers. Have a hanged spell on them for Transmutation, when its above the target, it goes off and transforms the paper into the core of a dwarf star. No matter what kind of ultra powerful supernatural you are, if that doesn't instantly kill you, you will at least be crippled.
    While I agree in principle, that particular example is unlikely I think if only because of the sheer Potency it would require to produce such an effect.

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    • #17
      And that the spell specifically says inert matter. Maybe it's kinetically, maybe chemically, but it might not be possible to transform something into the largest nuclear bomb ever. But what you can do is transform a few cubic metres of air to tungsten over someone's head.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #18
        Turning a car into pure energy would release about 2e16 Joules (or 20,000 TJ). This assumes cars are 1500 kg hunks of iron, but it shouldn't be more than one or two orders of magnitude off from a real car. This is about half the yield of a B53 nuclear bomb.

        So, uh, don't do this if you're nearby.


        [edit]Theoretically achievable with Forces 2: just throw up a bubble of Shielding (Strong Interaction) and watch everything go kaboom. From a scrying window, preferably.
        Last edited by proindrakenzol; 06-14-2018, 07:26 AM.


        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology; Priests of the Watchful Eternity - a 2e Silver Ladder Moros Legacy (Life/Death) of Mages that enhance Mortals to fight strange entities

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        • #19
          Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
          Turning a car into pure energy would release about 2e16 Joules (or 20,000 TJ). This assumes cars are 1500 kg hunks of iron, but it shouldn't be more than one or two orders of magnitude off from a real car. This is about half the yield of a B53 nuclear bomb.

          So, uh, don't do this if you're nearby.
          Supernal magic doesn't work on physics. The actual result will probably depend on the car's Size rather than any mass or material, and also vary depending on what typd of energy you create. Look at the chart on Transform Energy and you'll realise that not even transforming between different types of energies follows any semblance of actual physics.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

            While I agree in principle, that particular example is unlikely I think if only because of the sheer Potency it would require to produce such an effect.
            Potency ? So you meant 1ed. Right, sorry, my brain thinks in terms of 2ed rules by default. You could prepare it ritually, then hang the spell. One reach for scale (all smaller than default size of 5), a few yantras could take care of the duration needed for it to fall. Not sure how to go about it in 1ed, I normally used a cheat sheet.

            A dwarf star core is not radioactive afaik. Its the result of a collapsing star imploding after expending its fuel, collapsing the surrounding galaxy into a mass the size of a golf ball. So its just impossibly dense and heavy, but I think it does not emit radiation, not sure, I would need to check.


            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

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            • #21
              A dwarf star is not matter in the context that Matter usually describes it. Something like that ( or for instance anti-matter etc) is pretty much Archmastery.

              Alternatively you could use "State change" as a reference. It lets you create plasma... except its not hot. So by analogy your dwarf star core would be pretty inert.

              The third option is that the exarchs do horrible things to anyone who attempts such a thing. Killing all their slaves is an afront.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

                Potency ? So you meant 1ed. Right, sorry, my brain thinks in terms of 2ed rules by default. You could prepare it ritually, then hang the spell. One reach for scale (all smaller than default size of 5), a few yantras could take care of the duration needed for it to fall. Not sure how to go about it in 1ed, I normally used a cheat sheet.

                A dwarf star core is not radioactive afaik. Its the result of a collapsing star imploding after expending its fuel, collapsing the surrounding galaxy into a mass the size of a golf ball. So its just impossibly dense and heavy, but I think it does not emit radiation, not sure, I would need to check.
                Potency is still a thing in 2e, I have no idea what you’re on about.

                If you look at the Forces conversion table then you can see that a forest fire is going to take Potency 5, minimum. What do you think the Potency of a dwarf star core would require? Because I imagine that level of energy would require an amount that’s very unlikely for a Mage to pull off.

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                • #23
                  I know both have Potency, but I was just talking about leveraging the density of the core, not the radiactivity. Radiation is a Dynamics spell, I think. So I thought maybe you meant number of targets was the issue, I didn't see how it was a problem in 2ed, so I thought maybe it was a 1ed thing, my grasp on 1ed spellcasting rules is tenuous at best.

                  So the core is not a "pure substance" by the spell's standards, but wine is, I imagine so is something like titanium. Maybe its because it doesn't have a standard recipe ? Its basically composed of whatever the nearby celestial bodies had and perhaps that pushes it to Dynamics.


                  New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                    I know both have Potency, but I was just talking about leveraging the density of the core, not the radiactivity. Radiation is a Dynamics spell, I think. So I thought maybe you meant number of targets was the issue, I didn't see how it was a problem in 2ed, so I thought maybe it was a 1ed thing, my grasp on 1ed spellcasting rules is tenuous at best.

                    So the core is not a "pure substance" by the spell's standards, but wine is, I imagine so is something like titanium. Maybe its because it doesn't have a standard recipe ? Its basically composed of whatever the nearby celestial bodies had and perhaps that pushes it to Dynamics.
                    No, it’s because the intensity of the effect would be very difficult if not impossible for a Mage to achieve. It has nothing to do with radiation (Something you no longer need to be an arch-master to tamper with by the way), or with numbers of targets (Which is something you measure via Scale, not Potency anyway and so has nothing to do with what we’re talking about), or purity of substance or any of the other stuff you’re going on about.

                    To put this another way, it’s very unlikely that a player could put together a dice pool large enough to penalize for the Potency necessary to achieve creating the core of a dwarf star.
                    Last edited by Mrmdubois; 06-14-2018, 09:11 PM.

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                    • #25
                      I think you are underastimating the size of a dwarf star core quite a bit. Depending on what kind of dwarf star we are talking about, but the core usually still has a radius of a couple of kilometers. Also: let's say you want to create/transmute an object the size of a golfball with the density of a white dwarf or neutron star. That object would not be able to sustain itself and either immediately explode, destroying the whole earth or collapse into a black hole, destroying the whole earth (and the solar system) more slowly.
                      In either way I think it would violate potency and size rules.
                      Also: I think the "anvil out of thin air over your head" has kind of the same effect you want and is just way more classic.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by HardcoreHannes View Post
                        I think you are underastimating the size of a dwarf star core quite a bit. Depending on what kind of dwarf star we are talking about, but the core usually still has a radius of a couple of kilometers. Also: let's say you want to create/transmute an object the size of a golfball with the density of a white dwarf or neutron star. That object would not be able to sustain itself and either immediately explode, destroying the whole earth or collapse into a black hole, destroying the whole earth (and the solar system) more slowly.
                        In either way I think it would violate potency and size rules.
                        Also: I think the "anvil out of thin air over your head" has kind of the same effect you want and is just way more classic.
                        Hahaha, sold, that sounds like way too much fun not to try.


                        New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          Now I'm seeing a Forces/Matter Adept transforming a car into the honk of a horn. Great fun until the spell ends and the entire neighbourhood becomes filled with car-particles.
                          Why a horn honk? Why not a firework's bang? Maybe complete with a sparkly light show for a Reach. Better yet, do all that, at the same time as your enemy is getting into the car to get away, and watch him get blown away by the mini-shockwave.

                          I can already hear it:

                          GM "Okay, so first of all he was knocked 3 yards(/meters) back from where he'd started, and knocked prone; he takes 4 lethal damage, minus his Stamina roll's successes, and he's stunned until the end of his turn. Second, you've literally set every car in the neighborhood to panic-alert honking at the same time. Take -3 to all concentration-based rolls, except spellcasting which takes only -1. Third, every window in about 10 yards has been shattered, and you're pretty sure that if the sound didn't wake anyone, and the panic alarms didn't do it, that probably did. And finally, you guys take 4 bashing, -1 for every 10 yards away, -1 for every success on your Stamina roll, minus any Mage Armor that would protect from sound. (My character's name), you can hear shouts of anger and frustration, and even a crying baby, from some of the houses as you recover from the deafening bang you just created."

                          Me "...totally worth it."

                          GM "By the way, three days later, the nightly news will be calling it a failed terrorist attack. Every Guardian will literally be gnashing their teeth at you every time you pass one of 'em."

                          Me "...still worth it."

                          EDIT: Weird, I thought I had more posts than zero before I made this post ._.
                          Last edited by Machaeus; 06-19-2018, 07:51 PM.

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                          • #28
                            I snerked at the Guardian's reaction, good one

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