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  • #16
    The above could use clarification if a mage donating his own blood to make blood in grimoires would work. I have a wording question about the perfected materials preview:

    • Brontium is Perfected copper. It shines brightly and is fiery red in color. Brontium is a perfect
    conductor of heat and electricity and is chemically inert. As copper is associated with the Primal
    Wild, so is brontium. Brontium offers a +2 tool Yantra to spells that deflect, protect, or redirect
    magic.
    Additionally items crafted of bronitium grant the user a +2 bonus to defend against
    debilitating effects.
    Is that saying 'spells that deflect magic, protect from magic, or redirect magic' or 'spells that take action by deflecting anything, protecting from anything, or redirection magic'?

    I could read it both ways, and each way would have a different use.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by HarbingerLeo View Post
      Is that saying 'spells that deflect magic, protect from magic, or redirect magic' or 'spells that take action by deflecting anything, protecting from anything, or redirection magic'?
      Given that "protect" requires a different preposition than the other two verbs, I'd say the latter, particularly given that the former is encompassed in the latter anyway by virtue of how generalized actions don't preclude specific forms of those actions.


      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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      • #18
        Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
        So you engage in a stupidly tough fight just to subdue the animal, then you have to ritualistically kill it, and then once you take the parts I mentioned, you've got a great big heap of useless. Oh, and a point of mana.
        Hot take: if you consider a bear "a small animal" you have a catastrophic issue of perspective on your hands.

        Dark Eras applies larger Mana payouts for livestock based on their ritual value and it would seem entirely within spec for large quarry to offer similar returns.

        Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
        What's so hubristic about killing an animal for Mana?
        I'm going to reframe this in a way that should make it clearer:

        What is it about opening a channel of Mana that breaks the normal limits of your ability to spend it that threatens your ability to contain and limit your magic?


        Resident Sanguinary Analyst
        Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          I'm going to reframe this in a way that should make it clearer:

          What is it about opening a channel of Mana that breaks the normal limits of your ability to spend it that threatens your ability to contain and limit your magic?
          Um... that does not make it clearer. Indeed, it makes your answer considerably less clear. Even a Gnosis 1 mage can channel 1 Mana per turn. Killing a small animal produces 1 Mana. Unless I've forgotten every bit of arithmetic I ever learned, 1 !> 1.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
            Um... that does not make it clearer. Indeed, it makes your answer considerably less clear.
            "The Mana gained from Sacrifice ignores the spend/Turn limits on Mana if the sacrifice is part of a spell's casting."

            Even a Gnosis 1 mage can channel 1 Mana per turn. Killing a small animal produces 1 Mana. Unless I've forgotten every bit of arithmetic I ever learned, 1 !> 1.
            Perhaps try algebra, because unless you think n + 1 is equal to 1 at any value of n other than 0, it should not be difficult to see how being able to do a thing to spend more Mana than usual breaks a standard limitation of your magical ability's safe practice.


            Resident Sanguinary Analyst
            Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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            • #21
              Well, what about the fact that extracting mana from a living being sounds like subtracting Supernal perfection from the Fallen world?
              Seems to me like destroing a Sarira for gaining the mana stored in it (but a lot less hubristic of course)

              And, as a side effect, i should make the animal corpse not nourishing at all because of the lack of mana, no nutrients returning to the nature, some sort of Metaphysical pollution
              Last edited by Neos01; 09-24-2018, 02:57 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
                Well, what about the fact that extracting mana from a living being sounds like subtracting Supernal perfection from the Fallen world?
                Seems to me like destroing a Sarira for gaining the mana stored in it (but a lot less hubristic of course)

                And, as a side effect, i should make the animal corpse not nourishing at all because of the lack of mana, no nutrients returning to the nature, some sort of Metaphysical pollution
                Okay, first of all that mana is still in the Fallen, typically being stored in the Mage who did the sacrifice, or being used to power a spell which is in the Fallen.

                Second, sacrificing an animal and taking the mana has no bearing on how nutritious the corpse is unless you're homebrewing that in.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                  Okay, first of all that mana is still in the Fallen, typically being stored in the Mage who did the sacrifice, or being used to power a spell which is in the Fallen.

                  Second, sacrificing an animal and taking the mana has no bearing on how nutritious the corpse is unless you're homebrewing that in.
                  Of course it s all homebrew and speculations.
                  It s true that the mana is still in the Fallen world but the mage "stole" it from a living being unique and irreplaceable, to use it for what?
                  It makes sense to me because all other mana sources doesn t come from other patterns (of course i consider scourging your pattern not hubristic) and that gives me the idea of "impoverishing" the world by sacrifice.
                  I imagine the sacrifical corpse rotting in a toxic sludge or inert dust, for enhanced sense of wrongness...

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                    "The Mana gained from Sacrifice ignores the spend/Turn limits on Mana if the sacrifice is part of a spell's casting."

                    Perhaps try algebra, because unless you think n + 1 is equal to 1 at any value of n other than 0, it should not be difficult to see how being able to do a thing to spend more Mana than usual breaks a standard limitation of your magical ability's safe practice.
                    It could potentially be extremely powerful, but it's also extremely niche. How often do you ritually sacrifice animals for mana in situations where you couldn't take an extra turn to spend one more mana?


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                    • #25
                      This got kind of out of hand. I am sorry for this, I didn't intend for this to go this way...

                      Umm, this is about being excited for signs of sorcery right? Who else is excited to do "touch the supernal again" stories with obsessed mages craving the supernal world deeper than mage sight once more? Aedes and all.

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                      • #26
                        To join main topic with sub topic - I looking for more info HOW to run 2E Wisdom, as it is weakest described mechanics in 2E corebook. 😉


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                          It could potentially be extremely powerful, but it's also extremely niche.
                          So is destroying a soul as a sacrament. That doesn't change the fact that it's a thing that allows you to exceed safe limits at the risk of your ability to contain and control your magic in the long term. "It's niche" doesn't act as a counter to anything about "you're cracking your soul open a little to let you do better at magic" as a response to "what is it about killing things for magic juice that damages your ability to control your magic?"

                          How often do you ritually sacrifice animals for mana in situations where you couldn't take an extra turn to spend one more mana?
                          About as often as I find myself needing to Reach beyond my normal means and minimize Paradox. Ideally that's not often, but the resource-juggling game of 2e operates under a framework where most of the innate problems it offers are for when you're stretched thin and have limited access to ideal casting circumstances for your desired outcome. The limit-breaker effect as presented is more immediately useful for human sacrifice, but the Mana you get has the same benefit regardless of source.


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            "The Mana gained from Sacrifice ignores the spend/Turn limits on Mana if the sacrifice is part of a spell's casting."

                            Perhaps try algebra, because unless you think n + 1 is equal to 1 at any value of n other than 0, it should not be difficult to see how being able to do a thing to spend more Mana than usual breaks a standard limitation of your magical ability's safe practice.
                            I have been specifically discussing small animal sacrifice, a practice which yields 1 Mana. As I said before, 1 !> 1. Now as for a human sacrifice, since a human normally has 7 Integrity and thus yields 7 Mana, does human sacrifice suddenly become non-hubristic at Gnosis 7, since at that point you're only channel the normal possible amount of Mana? This seems foolish, but it's the direct logical consequence of stating that sacrifice is hubristic because it allows the breaking of normal Mana channeling limits.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
                              I have been specifically discussing small animal sacrifice, a practice which yields 1 Mana. As I said before, 1 !> 1.
                              Yeah. You can spend more than just your gains from Sacrifice. Get out of the headspace of zero net expenditures if you want to make sense of this stuff.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                              • #30
                                And into editing SofS goes!


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