Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ghost Gate shenanigans

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ghost Gate shenanigans

    Ghost Gate turns people into ghostly Twilight entities along with any objects sent through. Interestingly, it does not say that the gate can convert anything from Twilight back into physical. It expressly states that any objects so translated are permanently "destroyed".

    Upshots of this:
    • Ghost Gate is pretty safe from ghost invasion if it's one-way. It's basically a very effective garbage disposal or trash chute, in that case.
    • It's a really simple way to destroy evil objects. Pop it through the gate. Pull it back with Touch of the Grave and drop the spell. Alakazam, you've rid the world of the One Ring or whatever.
    • It makes all clothing vaporize on return. That could be fun for parties.
    • It doesn't expressly provide a way back. That makes it less fun.
    • It destroys anything in your pockets, from cash to spell tools. Heck, it blows away any physical Anchors you might be holding.
    I'm a bit curious what the intent was, on this. RAI seems to be that people shift to Twilight and can return via the gate, but unliving stuff can't. I mean, at least Space provides a way back via Teleportation, but I get the impression that Ghost Gate was supposed to handle this. The RAW states that objects are destroyed when they cross. (Clearly that's intended to convey inanimate objects, here, but a literal reading has this convert animals or people into ephemera, also; ghosts, presumably.)

    I am considering ruling that any object shifted gets a grace period of the same duration as the gate, after which the destruction takes place if the object is still inside the gate. The grace period would be the duration of the last gate crossed. (You could, instead, rule that the grace only applies to the gate one entered) Should the duration end for any reason while the object's inside, it turns to ephemera, physical form destroyed. As long as you go back to the real world during the duration of the gate, though, objects come through without a hitch. This solves what I suspect was the issue they were trying to avoid, which was making sculpting of ephemera too easy a way to make copies of things, while allowing people the use of non-magical pants.

    If nothing else, a Matter or Space spell to keep the objects "real" while travelling through make some sense. Matter could use something based on the Fate spell Warding Gesture:
    Matter 2: Protected Form: (Shielding, Duration, etc.) The mage can protect an object from being reformed or destroyed by supernatural forces. Any such attempt provokes a Clash of Wills. This can prevent an object from being altered by an existing effect, such as passing through a Ghost Gate, or by direct attacks on it. If the Clash fails, obviously, the effect works as expected. The owner of this effect can choose which side of a Clash to succeed, should he be both.
    +1 Reach: The effect applies to a person and everything on their person.
    +2 Reach & Death 2, Mind 2, or Spirit 2: The object may translate into ephemera and back automatically without changing it in any fundamental way. When the spell ends the protection against translation ends but any shifting already done does not retroactively become dangerous.

    (Teleportation doesn't have the destruction issue, so, perhaps the Space solution would be to simply cross over without the gate. I could also see a variant Reach+Death option for Co-Location that allowed moving select physical things from in Twilight)


    Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

  • #2
    Originally posted by thenate View Post

    Ghost Gate is pretty safe from ghost invasion if it's one-way. It's basically a very effective garbage disposal or trash chute, in that case.
    Ghosts mostly cannot pass through it since they cannot exist in a "physical" state without using a Manifestation. An ST might allow a reach option for Ghost Gate to apply Manifestations to ghosts passing through, but personally I'd place such an effect at the pattering level. (There is some limited precedent for granting Manifestation via weaving in Ghost Summons though)
    It's a really simple way to destroy evil objects. Pop it through the gate. Pull it back with Touch of the Grave and drop the spell. Alakazam, you've rid the world of the One Ring or whatever.
    While mundane items are readily destroyed, I would not assume this is automatically the case for supernatural items. While minor alterations might not be enough to prevent destruction I don't think the One Ring would be destroyed so easily. That said twilight is a good start for a concealment strategy (assuming you keep ghosts away).
    It makes all clothing vaporize on return. That could be fun for parties.
    Yupp. As you later point out Shielding spells should be able to prevent this.
    It doesn't expressly provide a way back. That makes it less fun.
    That is a very literal reading of the spell. You are not technically wrong, but as later point out the intent seems to be that people can transition from flesh to ephemera and back, depending in which state they enter. I`d play it this way 100% of the time.

    I'm a bit curious what the intent was, on this. RAI seems to be that people shift to Twilight and can return via the gate, but unliving stuff can't.
    I take it as a hint to the unique relationship between Death and Matter. Life struggles to stay alive, merely passing into Death attuned Twilight doesn't slay it. But inanimate Matter is allready linked to Death metaphysically and thus the transition from "once physical" to "now just an ephemeral ghost memory" is particularily easy and just the change of state can cause it. This is pretty useful to bribe ghosts btw.
    I mean, at least Space provides a way back via Teleportation
    I don't follow. Teleportation can (with conjunctional Death) teleport things to and from the underworld, but it cannot affect Twilight at all. Twilight is a state of being, a reality frequency you are on if you so will, not a place. Space generally doesn't mess with it at all.

    The RAW states that objects are destroyed when they cross. (Clearly that's intended to convey inanimate objects, here, but a literal reading has this convert animals or people into ephemera, also; ghosts, presumably.)
    I think the intend was for people, animals etc to be able to cross back and forth, yes. Ghosts can cross too, but they lack the ability to shift to the flesh without Manifestations so it kind of doesn't do them any good.

    I am considering ruling that any object shifted gets a grace period of the same duration as the gate, after which the destruction takes place if the object is still inside the gate. The grace period would be the duration of the last gate crossed. (You could, instead, rule that the grace only applies to the gate one entered) Should the duration end for any reason while the object's inside, it turns to ephemera, physical form destroyed. As long as you go back to the real world during the duration of the gate, though, objects come through without a hitch. This solves what I suspect was the issue they were trying to avoid, which was making sculpting of ephemera too easy a way to make copies of things, while allowing people the use of non-magical pants.
    You can do that. I don't see the need for it personally, but nothing breaks if you do.

    If nothing else, a Matter or Space spell to keep the objects "real" while travelling through make some sense. Matter could use something based on the Fate spell Warding Gesture:
    Matter 2: Protected Form: (Shielding, Duration, etc.) The mage can protect an object from being reformed or destroyed by supernatural forces. Any such attempt provokes a Clash of Wills. This can prevent an object from being altered by an existing effect, such as passing through a Ghost Gate, or by direct attacks on it. If the Clash fails, obviously, the effect works as expected. The owner of this effect can choose which side of a Clash to succeed, should he be both.
    +1 Reach: The effect applies to a person and everything on their person.
    +2 Reach & Death 2, Mind 2, or Spirit 2: The object may translate into ephemera and back automatically without changing it in any fundamental way. When the spell ends the protection against translation ends but any shifting already done does not retroactively become dangerous.
    Similarily a Death Shielding spell could also work. Space on the other hand should have no ability to shield against either Twilight transition or destruction of inanimate matter, as far as I can see. A Time shield (shielding against change) should also work. Possibly also a Prime shield (shielding the "true" state of the items/person), but that is probably debateable.

    (Teleportation doesn't have the destruction issue, so, perhaps the Space solution would be to simply cross over without the gate. I could also see a variant Reach+Death option for Co-Location that allowed moving select physical things from in Twilight)
    Again Twilight is not a place and outside Space's purview. I can't stress this enough. You could however cast a combined spell that teleported somebody and also shifted him into twilight. But those are, at base, two very different effects.


    My Mage 2e Homebrew

    Comment


    • #3
      To be even more clear: If you're in Twilight and teleport somewhere, you'll be in Twilight over there instead.
      The only way that Space along can help is if you teleport to a place that lacks Twilight, in which case you become as if Materialized. Unfortunately it's likely not going to help you if you reenter a space with Twilight.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

      Comment


      • #4
        So, Indefinite Ghost Gate for all your garbage disposal and Ghost bribing needs?


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

        Comment


        • #5
          I'd think out of sight and out of mind doesn't actually help in garbage's case. It's just out of sight, not actually gone, and liable to anger some very dangerous neighbors when you dump anything on their well manicured (from their point of view) front lawn. I know if you did that in the shadow you'd end up either some angry spirits (of any kind for junking the resonances they feed on) or some spirits of garbage that wanted to create more even more garbage in the material world.

          The extra arcana is clever to reverse or shield against something. I think Death (the arcana) alone is supposed to be one way trip. It's mostly about entropy, taking things apart, and controlling entropy. The dead too, but I'm not sure that applicable here. It doesn't have a way bring something back. I think the most it can do, at 5 dots only (Ghost Gate is three dots) it can do is undo what age or entropy in general did to something. Even then it's rewinding the clock in a way, not actually rebuilding or reconstituting missing bits not present anymore. Even at 5dots, I'm not sure it could "undo entropy" on what no longer exists.
          Last edited by HarbingerLeo; 10-02-2018, 09:44 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            There's not much to anger in ghost-aligned Twilight. With the Geist 2e preview you'd instead risk getting the opposite problem with ghosts dumpster diving to commit Ectophagia on the objects in your personal dumping ground. Without the preview you'd only attract attention if a ghost has an Anchor close by since they rarely stray far from their Anchors.


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

            Comment


            • #7
              Hence its secondary function as bribery - you are funneling a bunch of Castoffs into waiting hands/mouths.

              As for Ghost Gate being one way, I always saw it as when the Duration expired, you get dumped back into the Material.


              Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
              Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Vent0 View Post
                Hence its secondary function as bribery - you are funneling a bunch of Castoffs into waiting hands/mouths.

                As for Ghost Gate being one way, I always saw it as when the Duration expired, you get dumped back into the Material.
                That is the purpose of the Reach clause, which also seems to imply your possessions are protected.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                  That is the purpose of the Reach clause, which also seems to imply your possessions are protected.
                  My impression is that the Reach merely converts from "pass through Gate to achieve the ghostly state" to "instantly translate into the ghostly state". I don't see any suggestion of protection. You getting that from the wording "shift to ephemera"?


                  (Oh, and as to why Space, Flinty: All gates have a position in Space, somewhere, that crossing through does its thing. Space could prevent the crossing, if nothing else. (Theoretically, Space could also grant the ability to move something around but that seems like Dynamics in the current model so not really germane.) There is a problem in using the items from Twilight for Space, but, at worst, a variation on Pocket Dimension could stash your kit and restore it at the end of your jaunt. Then you'd be streaking through Twilight...)
                  Last edited by thenate; 10-04-2018, 12:58 AM.


                  Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by thenate View Post
                    My impression is that the Reach merely converts from "pass through Gate to achieve the ghostly state" to "instantly translate into the ghostly state". I don't see any suggestion of protection. You getting that from the wording "shift to ephemera"?
                    The fact that the Reach doesn't repeat the rules about physical objects being destroyed by a regular Ghost Gate does seem significant to me, yes. It also means that like a spell with Reach effects is supposed to do, it's doing the same thing, but more complex.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by thenate View Post
                      My impression is that the Reach merely converts from "pass through Gate to achieve the ghostly state" to "instantly translate into the ghostly state". I don't see any suggestion of protection. You getting that from the wording "shift to ephemera"?
                      The fact that the Reach doesn't repeat the rules about physical objects being destroyed by a regular Ghost Gate does seem significant to me, yes. It also means that like a spell with Reach effects is supposed to do, it's doing the same thing, but more complex.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Interesting.

                        My understanding of Ghost Gate was: you and the stuff you take through can come back through the gate intact. In other words, you don't walk in clothed and come out naked.

                        The objects being destroyed thing was ... when you're in a Twilight state and you find something... if you bring it through the Ghost Gate, then it's destroyed. You can't bring back those things.

                        I also had a theory that "dark matter" is all the stuff in the universe that once existed... now destroyed through normal cosmic processes, but still existing in a state of Twilight.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by thenate View Post
                          at least Space provides a way back via Teleportation
                          Mostly going to talk about how I run this (interpretation + house rules), but this is worth mentioning - per RAW, Twilight isn't a location, so it follows that Space isn't going to be moving you into or out of it.

                          The spell seems to have been originally written with the misunderstanding that Twilight was a place, so it's kind of wonky because of that.

                          How it works at my table:
                          1) When the 'plane' shifts something into or out of a Twilight state, the effect is Lasting (being in the new state is a side effect of the actual effect of the spell, which is creating the 'plane') (Interpretation)
                          2) When using the 'plane', objects explicitly can't be brought back over (but they can be retrieved later as ephemeral objects by other spells). This includes clothing, Tools, etc. (Interpretation)
                          3) When using the 'plane', walking back through it from Twilight side allows living subjects to re-enter the material. No ghosts or Castoffs. (House Rule)
                          4) When you use the Reach effect, it only persists as long as the Duration since the translation into Twilight is now a direct effect. Anything you cast it on, including objects, return to the material normally when the Duration expires. (Interpretation)

                          The end result is that the portal version can be handy for long-distance travel, as long as you don't bring anything you care about being destroyed, since it won't take up a Spell Control slot to keep you in Twilight. If you can afford the Spell Control, the version that costs Reach is generally considered more practical.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
                            The spell seems to have been originally written with the misunderstanding that Twilight was a place, so it's kind of wonky because of that.
                            I don't think so, the spell and the other reference to it are pretty clear about what it's meant to do, turn things into ghostly ephemera, which is in Twilight form. It's just one way. If you wanted a spell that would turn ephemera into 'real' stuff, you'd cast a spell of the same Death level. But ghost gate isn't it. Similar to how Damage Ghost doesn't heal ghosts, but you could do that at that same rank.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by nofather View Post
                              I don't think so, the spell and the other reference to it are pretty clear about what it's meant to do
                              Yes, now. Those that jumped in pre-errata could see the confusion writ (literally) as clear as day. If you have doubts, there's still a reference to it in the errata document, which they published before releasing the errata'd book:

                              Ghost Gate: Twilight isn't a place - the spell makes a 2-dimensional plane that converts anything passing through it into Twilight.
                              That wouldn't be errata if it wasn't written differently before.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X