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Are Mages allowed to talk about magic?

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  • Gareth3
    started a topic Are Mages allowed to talk about magic?

    Are Mages allowed to talk about magic?

    This was inspired by the book and film "Heaven is for Real", and how you could use it in an RPG adventure. Let's say a child has a near-death experience and describes how he went to Heaven, then returned to Earth. A Guardian reads the book and immediately recognises his story as an Obrimos Awakening. He has none of the occult jargon, but every detail he describes matches up. But the child doesn't claim to have any supernatural powers or even any information he couldn't have got through mundane means. What's the reaction of the Guardians? On one hand, it's a security breach that needs to be locked down. On the other, he's not performing any magic in front of Sleepers, so he can't be doing any real harm. Occult stories are all over the media - even Phoebe from Friends did a ritual casting and got hit by Paradox. Without any actual evidence, what makes this story so dangerous? More generally, what if someone Awakened and then went on Youtube to describe it, without performing any magic? "Yo, what up Youtube, it's ya boy Logan Paul! Just went to the Primal Wild and Awakened as a Thyrsus, so that was intense..." Do the Guardians censor that kind of information?

  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    This is, then, a context issue.

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  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    The books are largely quite coy with whether things are objectively true (especially when there isn't really an 'objective truth'), because there are so many circumstances which can determine the truth of the matter, and because being so explicit could limit interesting plot hooks.

    For example, if you'd frequently told your Sleepwalker retainer that Magic is real, and that meant they couldn't Awaken, then you'd completely miss out on a potential "picking up the mantle" plot if you wanted to Mage-ify that retainer as a new PC should your Mage die.

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  • Deinos
    replied
    "revealed Sleepwalkers awaken less than ignorant ones"
    "Sleepwalkers are less likely to Awaken than sleepers"

    Its something some mages believe but the book doesn't say either way if its true or not.

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  • Dave Brookshaw
    replied
    Yeah, it's complicated - Awakening has multiple prerequisites and factors govening it, and being a Sleepwalker isn't one of them. Being a "revealed" Sleepwalker who knows about magic makes having a genuine confrontation with the Lie harder, because you can't have a revelation about something you already know. But being a Proximus makes the Watchtower more likely to pick you if you *did* manage it.

    So it's statistically measurable (revealed Sleepwalkers awaken less than ignorant ones) but also highly debateable. And the Orders do debate the crap out of it. The Mysterium is heavily "don't gift people knowledge they haven't earned, you doofus" while the Silver Ladder is highly pro-Sleepwalker.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Master Aquatosic View Post
    Yeah. Sleepwalkers are less likely to Awaken than sleepers
    It appears to be a little more complex. Despite what Dave said earlier in the thread, the 2e core book says:

    ​There is no solid way to study this phenomenon, to prove or disprove it, and so it remains a traditional assumption, but one that is challenged from time to time.
    Maybe there's a way that can be squared.

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  • Master Aquatosic
    replied
    Yeah. Sleepwalkers are less likely to Awaken than sleepers and are by default far more vulnerable to Overt Mage spells

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Originally posted by HarbingerLeo View Post
    Yea, not blind to it's a cold thing to do. The cold, uncaring (evil) logic was you couldn't remove the disease, so you remove the diseases ability to affect you. Then live with the consequences because you get to live.
    It’s not even actually something that would work, you’d just have Mages making themselves extinct.

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  • nofather
    replied
    Originally posted by HarbingerLeo View Post
    I have no idea what werewolves would do. I don't think wolfblooded count as sleep walkers.
    They do. And it'd be a big win for the Pure.

    It would be a big loss for mages since they wouldn't get many awakenings. Which is a win for the Exarchs but they like having human slaves and don't want mages wrecking the world they've made.

    Traditionally the method used to overcome the Lie has been to delve into the Abyss or Lower Depths and find a compatible place. Like Theumiel or Hounds of Annwn, though the former wants to bring it back here. Seeing rewards in wanton slaughter and simple solutions for complex problems are just part of the Lie. Or obviously trying to become a Supernal symbol and change things.
    Last edited by nofather; 10-27-2018, 05:19 PM.

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  • HarbingerLeo
    replied
    Originally posted by Gryphon's Feather View Post
    Trying to wipe out sleepers is a good goal for a villain, near the highest level of hubris possible.

    It's also the point where an Archmaster might actually intervene, or an Exarch, or anything else that's planetary to cosmic scale and would prefer the status quo.
    The vampires would be goaded into one action or another. I have no idea what werewolves would do. I don't think wolfblooded count as sleep walkers. They might decide they can return to being kings of their own over humans, or decide someone is poaching their turf. They're may not want to go on a killing spree, but they're not thrilled with humanity at large. Promitheians would have as much to lose as gain. Hunters and maybe geist would go bananas.

    Edit: Changelings would be horrified at what's happening, but know if they let it ride they'd have a world that might not fear them or could ally, as a world, to kick the gentry out every time they showed up.

    The archmagi would surely weight in on one side or the other. Actually I think the Exarch would be the most interesting of all. They might jump in to put a stop to it because they want ignorant masses to rule. They might just as easily give it all a push to have a world magic can move freely in again, and position them selves to be the rulers of magic. They're not exactly moral people to care about the common man They might just sit back and let it play out as it would be a mortal started thing, keeping the Pax Arcana by force if needed to let some other plan or scheam develop.
    Last edited by HarbingerLeo; 10-27-2018, 01:49 PM.

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  • HarbingerLeo
    replied
    Hm. Good to know, thank you Inodiv.

    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
    I mean holy shit, the Abyss was inflicted on Sleepers by the Exarchs, maybe try going after the actual source of the problem. Killing anyone who can’t become a Sleepwalker isn’t actually fixing anything.
    Yea, not blind to it's a cold thing to do. The cold, uncaring (evil) logic was you couldn't remove the disease, so you remove the diseases ability to affect you. Then live with the consequences because you get to live.

    Leave a comment:


  • lnodiv
    replied
    Originally posted by HarbingerLeo View Post
    In the setting as I know it, Magic is doomed with no hope.
    This is really not consistent with the history of magic in 2E as we know it.

    There is no gradual guttering out of magic present. As time has advanced, the percentage of the population that Awakens has gone down, yes, but the absolute number has gone up. There are more Mages in modern nights than ever before.

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  • HarbingerLeo
    replied
    Oh, no argument my 'solution' is cold or even evil. I'm less arguing "It's the only way". More fatalistically snickering without a way to actually defeat 'The Lie' or undo the damage that created the abyess?

    In the setting as I know it, Magic is doomed with no hope. The best it can hope for is to keep holding on to live just a little longer. It can't actually fight back. It's in a situation where it has to do something draconian to survive or just accept it is going to die. The most mortal mages can hope to do is momentarily fight the abyss to a standstill before it takes another cut it can not heal.

    Edit: Flipping logic this way and that, I realized it is a life or death struggle with no options but to kill or be killed. The "Struggle" has and is going to take thousands of years, but it's no less a terminal end.
    Last edited by HarbingerLeo; 10-27-2018, 01:07 PM.

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  • 2ptTakrill
    replied
    This doesn't have to happen on a global scale, or anything else that attracts the attention of Exarchs and Archmasters, it could be happening in an isolated town or just a borough. It also doesn't require genocide and death, many communities have driven out the 'undesirables' through other means. Boston Unveiled has a neighborhood where bankers worked to drive out the Jews for example.
    This could be an excellent distasteful act of hubris taking place within the Concillium as part of the Pentacle (perhaps even an entire order caucus) tries to create a 'pure' population as an experiment.

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  • Gryphon's Feather
    replied
    Trying to wipe out sleepers is a good goal for a villain, near the highest level of hubris possible.

    It's also the point where an Archmaster might actually intervene, or an Exarch, or anything else that's planetary to cosmic scale and would prefer the status quo.

    Leave a comment:

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