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  • Time Liches

    It seems to me that a mage could easily decide to seek immortality in the depths of Time magic. These liches would live their lives out over and over before Unmaking the previous life and starting again. And it's not like they couldn't avoid boredom by striking out to live in a different city if they wanted. Or just using Mind magic.

    While not exactly true immortality, living a new lifetime with every new indefinite duration casting of Corridors of Time is quite enough for most. Particularly since this method of lichdom stacks with other methods

  • #2
    Yep, can still be dispelled though.
    And it's probably going to get a bit boring seeing many similar events in history multiple times over.
    And messed up, if you think of the implications.

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    • #3
      That train of thought mind end with: "Hey, I'm not bored anymore!"

      Who's to say history isn't being rewritten all the time by mages great and small, for better or worse, for good or evil, but we're all changed with it. So things have 'always been that way'.

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      • #4
        Ground Hog’s Day

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        • #5
          Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
          Yep, can still be dispelled though.
          And it's probably going to get a bit boring seeing many similar events in history multiple times over.
          And messed up, if you think of the implications.
          There are a few workarounds. The first one is to have a Prime Legacy to hide the spell and to make it harder to dispel. Second is to make it a special characteristic of the Legacy. The same way that the Haruspex can use sacrifices to make their prophetic powers stronger, Time Liches could eat time to secure the next spin of the cycle.

          The twist is that they are like the Weeping Angels from Dr Who, they send you back to some random point in time before your birth and feed off the potential time you lost in the present for the last Reach. But once they activate this attainment, they must feed or risk degenerating into the statue form that can only move when not seen.

          That is just one approach, you can probably have different variations where new Legacies were born when the creators were inspired by meeting the beings in WoD:Immortals, and made a derivate method with a Supernal twist, but immortlity always has a price.


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

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          • #6
            KaiserAfini no one mentioned legacies, they aren’t necessary to be a lick of the variety the OP is talking about.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
              Yep, can still be dispelled though.
              Which just catapults the mage back to the time he cast the spell from. Not only does it NOT kill the lich, it also probably undoes the enemy that dispelled the Corridor of Time spell. The time-travel becomes undone except in the memories of the lich, who returns to the moment he cast Corridors of Time.

              Like, what I'm picturing is this 80 year old Master of Time that has realized he only has a year left to live. He casts Corridor of Time and lives his life anew from the age 20. Then when he reaches 80 and that timeline settles in, he casts the spell again and relives from 20 again.

              No the real fear of the Lich is getting killed in the past, which "sets" the timeline. If anything, he'll be the one to cancel the spell if he feels he's in danger of death
              Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
              And it's probably going to get a bit boring seeing many similar events in history multiple times over.
              Mind magic can fix that. As can simply using the time to delve deeper into the mysteries of magic. As can deciding "this life I'm moving to Tokyo"
              Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
              And messed up, if you think of the implications.
              Liches man. Plus not really more messed up than the more casual time travel other Time Mages do

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              • #8
                Nothing in the original post indicated it was not a possible avenue of exploration. If the main issue was dispellation, as Herbert mentioned, then Legacies present a way to protect the active Corridors of Time, or perhaps even allow for the extra reach to make it into an dispelation immune attainment, if it also involved an interesting set of weaknesses the lich would have to work around.


                New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

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                • #9
                  Primary issue with a Legacy would be reach and factors.
                  While that's never stopped me in my updates, that would still require at least Gnosis 8.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                    Nothing in the original post indicated it was not a possible avenue of exploration. If the main issue was dispellation, as Herbert mentioned, then Legacies present a way to protect the active Corridors of Time, or perhaps even allow for the extra reach to make it into an dispelation immune attainment, if it also involved an interesting set of weaknesses the lich would have to work around.
                    Dispellation is actually a fake weakness. All it costs the Time Lich is a lifetime. And the Lich has plenty of those. So it's a poetic and painful loss ... but far worse for the dispeller, who comes undone and unremembered in a time-that-never-was. Remembered only by the Lich.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lareath View Post
                      While not exactly true immortality, living a new lifetime with every new indefinite duration casting of Corridors of Time is quite enough for most.
                      Worth pointing out: even a bare-bones casting of this sort puts you well into the range of Paradox — Indefinite Duration and Sensory Range on a five-dot spell see you contending with at least six dice of potential bugs to work out.

                      If you're not an Acanthus, you'll need to have put the work in to developing a Praxis or formalizing a Rote for the spell to save on Mana available for avoiding Paradox; if you hold off on increasing your Gnosis to save on Paradox dice, you'll be leaning further into Yantra bonuses to offset the baseline -10 penalty you're eating to a Gnosis + 5 casting pool, which you're already losing out on if you're making use of any appreciable temporal sympathy at all; if you instead lean into Gnosis to better facilitate a usable dicepool, you're looking at higher Paradox pools or higher Mana costs or a very specifically cultivated Demesne on top of being more magically visible unless you take pains to minimize your supernatural profile.

                      What I'm getting at is that the methods of carrying this out are a lot more interesting to contemplate than "what if a Master of Time decided to become a lich who isn't a lich in any meaningful sense of the term on account of how time works in this setting?" An Acanthus with access to a faerie glade, a Mastigos with an Academics-based Rote, and a Legacy Obrimos who's developed a Praxis of the spell are all going to have radically different approaches even if their motivations for becoming a very decompressed Bill Murray are roughly identical.

                      Originally posted by Lareath View Post
                      Dispellation is actually a fake weakness. All it costs the Time Lich is a lifetime. And the Lich has plenty of those. So it's a poetic and painful loss ... but far worse for the dispeller, who comes undone and unremembered in a time-that-never-was. Remembered only by the Lich.
                      You realize that any mage with the wherewithal to dispel a Master-level time-travel spell probably has the presence of mind to develop a Constant Presence as well, right?


                      Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                      Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        Worth pointing out: even a bare-bones casting of this sort puts you well into the range of Paradox — Indefinite Duration and Sensory Range on a five-dot spell see you contending with at least six dice of potential bugs to work out.
                        One potential variant of Time Lich makes a Demesne the first trip back and then never every leaves it again. This variant is also likely to be either crazy or riding the Mind train.

                        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                        You realize that any mage with the wherewithal to dispel a Master-level time-travel spell probably has the presence of mind to develop a Constant Presence as well, right?
                        Probably not. Prime or Death mages are the ones likely to be dispelling here. A Time mage would likely know better than to dispel and would use a different method.

                        I'm also honestly not sure how well Constant Presence would work against undoing the time travel. It's a bit wibbly and would probably vary on a case by case basis for whatever the Storyteller thinks makes a better plot.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lareath View Post
                          One potential variant of Time Lich makes a Demesne the first trip back and then never every leaves it again.
                          The way Demesnes work means this results in a very dull state of affairs where they might as well have just gone with the Veil of Moments methodology or put themselves in a coma.

                          Which is to say: Congratulations! You've invented no-consequence Astral travel or budget archmastery.

                          Probably not. Prime or Death mages are the ones likely to be dispelling here. A Time mage would likely know better than to dispel and would use a different method.
                          You know that most high-level mages are likely to be at least passingly competent in more than one Arcanum, right?

                          I'm also honestly not sure how well Constant Presence would work against undoing the time travel.
                          Considering the implicit hostage situation you're describing any long-scale time-traveler as having access to just by virtue of basic spell control is too unilateral to conceivably fit design intent? Just fine, in all likelihood.

                          It's a bit wibbly and would probably vary on a case by case basis for whatever the Storyteller thinks makes a better plot.
                          There are a great many better plots than "powerful character engages in decades-long masturbatory exercise that ensures they will never meaningfully engage with anything ever again."


                          Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                          Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            The way Demesnes work means this results in a very dull state of affairs where they might as well have just gone with the Veil of Moments methodology or put themselves in a coma.

                            Which is to say: Congratulations! You've invented no-consequence Astral travel or budget archmastery.
                            Hence why I described that version as winning the "most likely lunatic" award.

                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            You know that most high-level mages are likely to be at least passingly competent in more than one Arcanum, right?
                            I think you missed my point, which was that if you have Time 2 to be able to cast Constant Presence, you probably know enough about time travel to know that just shooting the bastard is way less risky than Dispelling. Since shooting him stabilizes your timeline, but dispelling means that if you succeed a Clash of Wills you get to enjoy being dumped into an alien timeline that diverged decades ago. And failing means you just vanish and get overwritten by the original.

                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            Considering the implicit hostage situation you're describing any long-scale time-traveler as having access to just by virtue of basic spell control is too unilateral to conceivably fit design intent? Just fine, in all likelihood.
                            That still doesn't remove the hostage situation to all their friends and family.

                            On the interesting plot hook side it opens up weird options like threatening to travel back in time and teach a rival's past self Time so that the current self will be supplanted. Or "Use Rewrite History to grab a friendly Time mage version of X, then have him sustain his own existence via Constant Presence when you release the spell. Then repeat." And generally just promotes "as the iterations of time travel increase, the chance an arbitrary mage will be replaced by a version that knows can cast Constant Presence approaches 1"

                            Plus for a long term time-travel you run into weirdness like "in the other timeline, X cast Constant presence one day a year each year .... do X's friends now live in constant horror over the fact that at the end of each year he'll get overwritten?"

                            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                            There are a great many better plots than "powerful character engages in decades-long masturbatory exercise that ensures they will never meaningfully engage with anything ever again."
                            Agreed ... I was more referring to picking and choosing whether adding more complications to a game at a given moment would actually enhance the game or just bore the players with more distractions from some other plot element they care about way more.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lareath View Post
                              Hence why I described that version as winning the "most likely lunatic" award.
                              "Character spends several subjective decades with the specific aims of either garnering minimal resources playing along with events they could have jumped in before or after or making sweeping changes to their life that set a running timer on their ability to not conduct themselves in absolute secrecy" is already an innately bonkers reason to use long-term Corridors. The Awakened generally have better things to do with their time and Making lets you get extra hours to work on without having to shake the foundations of history in the process anyway.

                              I think you missed my point, which was that if you have Time 2 to be able to cast Constant Presence, you probably know enough about time travel to know that just shooting the bastard is way less risky than Dispelling.
                              In the hypothetical where a mage makes use of powerful magic to proceed on a journey with literally nothing at stake, sure. In the scenario where there is anything remotely interesting going on with this sojourn, your reasons for wanting to boot an interloper will likely stay consistent unless the time-traveller makes a specific effort that convinces you otherwise.

                              Since shooting him stabilizes your timeline, but dispelling means that if you succeed a Clash of Wills you get to enjoy being dumped into an alien timeline that diverged decades ago. And failing means you just vanish and get overwritten by the original.
                              You're not "vanishing." There is no "original" to overwrite in any sense that is not identical to a hypothetical version of you that an Adept constructs with Prophecy. You already happened and if you understand how time travel works you already have to grapple with the existential questions it raises.

                              That still doesn't remove the hostage situation to all their friends and family.
                              No, but that one's solved by the basic rules for how prophecy in the past works — if they pull the ripcord, you know how the future unfolds and retain the capacity to learn enough about time travel to do exactly what they did.

                              Plus for a long term time-travel you run into weirdness like "in the other timeline, X cast Constant presence one day a year each year .... do X's friends now live in constant horror over the fact that at the end of each year he'll get overwritten?"
                              You're talking about timelines like they're a thing that meaningfully exists in Mage's setting where alternate timelines are pretty much only alluded to in terms of "this is a fucked-up thing from the Abyss that wants to replace our reality." Retroactively nested time-travel amounts to "this character got a lot of information about the past all at once at these points," which isn't even that weird in Awakened circles under normal circumstances.

                              Agreed ... I was more referring to picking and choosing whether adding more complications to a game at a given moment would actually enhance the game or just bore the players with more distractions from some other plot element they care about way more.
                              You're talking about a scenario where the PCs are objective-past states of themselves and a Master is fucking around for budget immortality. Very little about that enhances the game in the first place.


                              Resident Sanguinary Analyst
                              Currently Consuming: Changeling: the Lost 1e

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