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  • Moros a bit limited?

    I would love to play a moros. Death, transition, darkness, it's all good. But if I were to play one, I'd want to be Death focused. Matter is cool, but if you want the skull ring and the ponytail, you'd better know Death!

    But what can it do? Based on 2e core, Death is either rather limited (or way too expansive). At least, that's how it seems to me.

    Fate, forces, life ... That's useful everywhere. But summoning ghosts is pretty specific. I mean, there might not be any around. Zombies aren't much use near sleepers, and they're pretty brute force around mages. A portal to Twilight is a cool back door/ escape, but is it as useful as a space portal or as amazing as a gateway across the Gauntlet?

    What am I missing?

  • #2
    Well I mean Ghosts are kind of everywhere, they are the most common supernatural splat. And Twilight isn't the Moros domain, the Underworld is. And as seen in the Geist book the underworld is a big, big, place


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    • #3
      I like what you're saying. By core though, don't I have to wait until Master to get there? I guess what I'm saying is: moros are great if you want to hang around the dead, but the others are useful anywhere.

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      • #4
        Shadows go a pretty long way as well, and they're pretty much everywhere. If you're practiced enough to be able to bodily enter Twilight then you have the chops to pull decent equipment out of a dark corner.

        To speak to the "brute force" and "not much use around Sleepers" bit, though, I think it's important to remember that casting and conducting magical activities around Sleepers is largely an aberrant circumstance and zombies are most notably useful as a source of cheap labor. The Necromancer/Alchemist Path is, unsurprisingly, really good at the business of Having A Well-Outfitted Sanctum.

        Ghosts? Just about everywhere with a graveyard, as Geist 2e confirms, and you get the capacity to let a ghost Manifest away from its Anchors with relatively basic competence in the Arcanum.

        And of course there's no call to discount the forensic applications of Death in a game built around investigating Mysteries and keeping people from doing the same to you.

        It's important not to confuse "limited" with "requires some setup," which is the case for half the Subtle Arcana anyway (Fate pays forward in complicating factors instead and most of Mind's utility is strictly interpersonal). There's a reason most mages diversify before they push their boundaries in a solitary Arcanum.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Peachy Joe View Post
          By core though, don't I have to wait until Master to get there?

          Master is required to just create a gateway to the Underworld from our of nowhere, but opening an exisiting gateway (like at any graveyard or place of death or decay) is easy for a starting level Mage.

          Originally posted by Peachy Joe View Post
          I guess what I'm saying is: moros are great if you want to hang around the dead, but the others are useful anywhere
          You're the one who decided to ignore half of Moros (Matter) and then say it is only useful "if you want to hang around dead".

          As far as the Death arcanum goes, there is also Shadows as Satchel points out, and souls, cold, absence, enervation, and endings. You can use a number of those on objects as well, you can enervate peoples weapons to destroy them, for example.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by Peachy Joe View Post
            I would love to play a moros. Death, transition, darkness, it's all good. But if I were to play one, I'd want to be Death focused. Matter is cool, but if you want the skull ring and the ponytail, you'd better know Death!

            But what can it do? Based on 2e core, Death is either rather limited (or way too expansive). At least, that's how it seems to me.

            Fate, forces, life ... That's useful everywhere. But summoning ghosts is pretty specific. I mean, there might not be any around. Zombies aren't much use near sleepers, and they're pretty brute force around mages. A portal to Twilight is a cool back door/ escape, but is it as useful as a space portal or as amazing as a gateway across the Gauntlet?

            What am I missing?
            One way I think of things as a GM is that power selection is a hint into what a player wants. If a player sticks 1 dot in death or spirit, I won't necessarily invest in ghost/spirit heavy storylines, but 3 dots? It's time for some Grim Fandango.


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            • #7
              Since Death covers absence, it's a great Arcanum for stealth. There are veiling spells that can remove forensic evidence and suppress auras, and once you become a Master you can effectively move through the world unnoticed by any and all. Also, as Moros is the Path of Doom, I'd probably allow a Death Perfecting spell to create an effect similar to a Hex.

              Finally (though I admit this is a pretty niche and also kind of nasty application), zombies can be used not just for brute force, but also as a demoralizing factor. Those corpses have to come from somewhere, after all; raise an enemy's deceased loved one as a zombie (or cast a Death Veiling spell to make a cadaver appear as such) and find ways to make them cry.

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              • #8
                Death is actually probably the BROADEST and most versatile arcana. Entropy, ending, decay and absence are already an utterly enormous purview before you even consider things like corpses, ghosts, twilight, souls, darkness, and ice.

                Consider the Practices of Fraying, Unraveling, and Unmaking. There's a fairly strong argument to be made those entire Practices fall under Death. That any spell of those Practices, regardless of Arcana, can be duplicated by Death.

                Death can decay temporal sympathetic connections, wither destinies, quell storms, weaken Hallows, shatter friendships, destroy volumes of space, banish spirits (absence), sterilize bacteria, and rot walls.
                Last edited by Lareath; 10-16-2018, 12:08 AM.

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                • #9
                  Have ever read the Legion of Superheroes? A Moros with Death 2 and a tiny bit of creativity is Shadow Lass... and that's barely the start.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lareath View Post
                    Death is actually probably the BROADEST and most versatile arcana. Entropy, ending, decay and absence are already an utterly enormous purview before you even consider things like corpses, ghosts, twilight, souls, darkness, and ice.

                    Consider the Practices of Fraying, Unraveling, and Unmaking. There's a fairly strong argument to be made those entire Practices fall under Death. That any spell of those Practices, regardless of Arcana, can be duplicated by Death.

                    Death can decay temporal sympathetic connections, wither destinies, quell storms, weaken Hallows, shatter friendships, destroy volumes of space, banish spirits (absence), sterilize bacteria, and rot walls.
                    Not by itself it can't since it can't detect those things in order to end them.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

                      Not by itself it can't since it can't detect those things in order to end them.
                      This is the key question for me. If Death can be interpreted that broadly it's amazing. I'd love an expanded spell list. From the book, it seemed limited to some specific applications, with a real curve ball from darkness and cold. There are so excited things I'd like Death to do - do you think these are reasonable RAW?

                      Know how target will die (unless something changes), perhaps also where and when.

                      Increase entropy on, say, a vehicle. Basically it becomes prone to faults and ruins fuel efficiency. With reach the wasted energy is lost as heat, igniting the tank.

                      "End" the yearly cycle for a tree, rotting the fruit and shedding the leaves. With reach could move towards the end of cycle, so go from Spring to Autumn and produce food.

                      From a piece of scrap, understand what was destroyed to create it (see the thing before it decayed).

                      Cast a spell of ending on a small social gathering. Everyone becomes morbid or tired and decides to leave.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Octavo View Post

                        One way I think of things as a GM is that power selection is a hint into what a player wants. If a player sticks 1 dot in death or spirit, I won't necessarily invest in ghost/spirit heavy storylines, but 3 dots? It's time for some Grim Fandango.
                        I'm with you there. Mage being a collaborative storytelling game, it's probably reasonable to expect that, say, the Obrimos relic hunter will discover his lost relic is in the underworld, or the mastigos silver ladder trying to sway the FC to support his political play discovers they're now letting ghosts vote.

                        Man, I love Mage.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Peachy Joe View Post

                          This is the key question for me. If Death can be interpreted that broadly it's amazing. I'd love an expanded spell list. From the book, it seemed limited to some specific applications, with a real curve ball from darkness and cold. There are so excited things I'd like Death to do - do you think these are reasonable RAW?

                          Snip
                          Yes, those are all possible Id think.

                          The important point is that the Spells in the core book are only examples, never intended to be an exhaustive list of options.Combine the Practices on page 123 and the purview for Death on page 128; that gives you all the possible things that Death can do using Creative Thamauturgy (page 125).

                          Also check the Creative Thaumaturgy thread in this Sub Forum, lots of new spells have been proposed and discussed there.


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                          • #14
                            Is say no to seeing how a person will die (With an exception for things that are in their body already that are likely to kill them, genetic conditions, foreign objects, etc), as one the future is unwritten, and two you can’t see future stuff without Time.

                            The other examples are probably fine.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                              Is say no to seeing how a person will die (With an exception for things that are in their body already that are likely to kill them, genetic conditions, foreign objects, etc), as one the future is unwritten, and two you can’t see future stuff without Time.

                              The other examples are probably fine.

                              Oh, yeah, I agree. For some reason I skipped over that one.

                              Unless death is immenient, I wouldn't allow that without Time or Fate (for destined deaths).


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